How do you use a corporate partner to fund early M&A?

they called me up and said hey we have a pitch we want to start an American football team in France and I said well this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard have you explored growing your business through acquiring other businesses well believe it or not it's actually sometimes easier to raise money for acquiring another company than it is to raise money for your core business we're making a very healthy profit in the the millions uh range and that's exactly what our guest Patrick Butler did for talent Inc and he had a great exit to private Equity so much so that he actually started a American football team in Paris they fronted the collateral for us to take uh substantial debt the kind of debt that we couldn't do as two people in a garage hey everyone welcome back to fundraising demystified today we have Patrick Butler with us co-founder and CEO of Biz Defender welcome to the show Patrick thanks for having me Jason I'm really excited yeah you've got a really fun backgr around uh not only do you have a exited startup under your belt um but you've also founded a European American football team uh which I and rais money for and I'm excited to talk about that from different stories that are out there for Founders to learn from uh and then we'll get into your choice to pursue uh starting your next venture through a venture studio so before we dive into everything I think it'd be great just you tell the audience a little bit about your first Venture Talent Inc you know what you did there uh and then we'll get into the story of how you ended up raising money in a unique way there sure um telic was actually not my first I failed many times and lots of other things which is a good thing to share um I was coming out of an era where I had had some successful day jobs uh I went to business school was having a really tough time finding a job I was either overqualified or underqualified it's a very common story so I had a soft spot for solving the career space in general connecting valuable people to valuable companies um and I would say that anybody's listening if somebody's interested in what is the one key piece of advice I keep going back to one moment that I can pin down with Talon um one thing I would prioritize kind of every in every Venture going forward in the future was the moment I met my co-founder Jeff um and I'd say leading up to talic like I said um I had some modest success um I coming out of uh a couple of startups that that didn't go so well for me that learned a ton I was actually had just built a Shazam for TV and movies that was very proud of Took a ton of work but had no idea how to Market it um and take it to Market I was already kind of burned out and looking for something uh and some purpose and I met Jeff um and when I talk about this moment something clicked with him I now had a lot of data points on what makes a good co-founder um we had the same energy we got it we had wildly different skill sets I would say he wasn't an immediate like best friend which was a good thing but we left our first conversation with we have to do something and so uh he was uh working for a Swedish research firm called universum um they were very successful worldwide making a mark on the US and he was tasked with uh managing all the digital assets for them in the US and launching it and trying to figure out uh how to build revenue in unique ways um and so I said yeah let's let's I'll join you I'll come work for and with you to see what we can do and a year into it we came with our thesis for Talon ink um it's a big ambitious name for an ambitious idea uh we thought we think and we thought then the career space uh is is really serving companies and recruiters there isn't a lot of opportunity to for a job Seeker to take out their wallet and Advance their career in fact in most business models in the career space the job Seeker is the product uh and I had just come off of this this story where I I felt that um I wanted to spend a little bit of money I wanted a little bit of help I wanted to feel less less lonely this is 2012 um and so we we had this idea and um nobody was advocating for the job seeker and so we set out to build a product to do that and so we started with the resum which is a very unsexy product that I can't think of a single person that advocates for uh but still necessary in the job ecosystem in this day and age is still uh to connect people and their skill sets to the right open um so if you've ever seen an online resume critique a free resume critique I apologize it's so so ubiquitous at this point we started that uh about 12 15 years ago uh but it was wildly successful um the initial idea was I can't sell you the the value prop of a resume rewrite in 60 or in one second but I can do it in 60 seconds and so how can I get your attention how can I build your trust uh how can I Shepherd you through the value prop and the way we did it was building a free resume critique talk about what is a resume why would you use it where are you doing particularly well or not and just demonstrate that we know what we're talking about and so when we started I built I personally coded uh the Prototype uh in a couple of weeks and we launched it against some of our internal assets at the Swedish company we we owned a couple of small job boards and right out of the gate we had great unit economics we had traction and uh as a Founder these these are the things that I was lacking this is the stuff that I was convinced was not only just going to pay for my day job but uh you know Inspire investment and growth and make this a job I really wanted to kind of work on for a long period of time so um the the Swedish company was very Progressive is very very Progressive and we they did two things that were essential for the business so right out of the gate we did they did two things we carved out some equity for them and in exchange and parallel to that they front red the collateral for us to take uh some substantial debt the kind of debt that we couldn't do as two people in a garage um I could say that it's it was like 6 to8 million at the time um and immediately we were able to make some Acquisitions of service providers that we were using to get this off the ground bring some stuff in housee make some key hires and just go quickly we were that confident in the business model that we thought we could pay it back it was also the Great era of 0% interest rates and all that um but the parent company was very helpful and supportive because they had an equity stake as well as uh kind of the assets to back this so um we ran for two or three years in that in that that that uh capacity and um as we grew we spun out some new brands we tried some new products uh we we um turbocharged growth by partnering with people that could benefit from this product um the major job boards almost every Ma job Bo you've ever heard of um we'd go into their office and say look we have a product that's going to make your job Seekers better to the people that are applying to your jobs would you like to partner with us where we can value this and offer some value um and our our secret sauce back then and what's informed how I've worked going forward again we knew the risk um it's very hard to convince somebody hey we'll sell a resume rewrite for $300 do you want to split the revenue with us they said well yeah is the product good let's take a couple months let's go back versus how about you give your users a free resumé critique we'll front you a little bit of uh cash for that or some value in kind and that's a very easy pitch it's like it's a free resume critique what's going to happen we're not going to tarnish our brand we're and and then we took on the burden of upselling and extracting value kind of down the supply chain um and it was incredibly successful in getting to Market fast and quick and so very very quickly almost every major job board was integrated our critique and we're getting tens of millions of these free critiques we built an infrastructure to both convert and educate job Seekers but um I spent most of my time in kind of a product in Tech rooll dreaming up products to extract expand the lifetime value but also you know keep people in a system this wasn't a subscription model if we if we're really good at get getting somebody a job typically they don't come back and start using their products so how how do we extend the the relationship um and so we had a lot of success and along the way we took a little bit Equity to help speed up a couple of uh Acquisitions I think we made six or eight in the time I was there um where again it was just kind of optimizing somebody was doing something similar but not as well or not as efficiently we could bring them in house and and make money and uh by 2020 we uh were making a very healthy profit in the the millions uh range and it was a very good time in the company's life cycle to have talks about private Equity uh and there was lots of uh funds that were looking for companies of our size to merge with others in a similar way that we had at a smaller scale um and uh yeah so we made the decision to to exit at the end of 2020 to uh beb Investment Partners the company's still up and running it's bigger uh all the things that they wanted from it um it's now part of a bigger conglomerate um but I was I was very fortunate to kind of negotiate but also find it right at the company's life cycle to step off step out myself um and so after eight years of working on that um I left the company at the same time that we were acquired wow so that's uh that's quite the journey I want to kind of take a step back go to a couple points that you kind of glazed over but I thought were pretty interesting uh you didn't raise money the traditional way and I want you to tell the audience a little bit more about what you actually did with this parent company and how you struck that deal you also alluded to before we hopped on the the call here that you raised some outside money but you know you went and did the dog and py show for raising Capital but you know you didn't get the results you actually expected can you kind to just share to the audience a little bit more about the actual fundraising strategy when you did it and how you approached it yeah and I I consider myself my own adviser and kind of like I'm a Founder today and I'm constantly going back to The Well of like what what did that mean at the time I think the most interesting things were one um sure it sounds great great that we raised a a bunch of debt and made it an acquisition right away um the founders were these are human beings that uh of the the Swedish company that we were constantly talking to we it wasn't a negotiation it's more of a collaboration of what makes the most sense um and they were you know very supportive throughout the entire journey of the company uh but you know like any startup if you're not moving fast enough and sweating the day-to-day bills at some point you know that you're you're not doing a good job um I didn't you know there's a certain tolerance for that you don't want to have too much sitting in the bank you know what's the right amount raise too much too little uh so we were we were cash lean all you know lots and lots of times you know worried about when we're going to run out for payroll and all the the usual problems that that people have um when we decided we really did explore an honest uh Equity raise a couple years in where we approv in really good unit economics we're on the verge of profitability with really good revenue and had a good product and a good engineering team and good differentiation it was like the cusp of the beginning of like machine learning and all of like really cool stuff in Tech um and so we did we went out and we put together the deck and we got meetings and um I remember one specifically of a a big uh very well-known VC uh where we walked in and there might have been 10 or 15 Associates and matching flees kind of grilling us and all the individual unit economics which I loved and we had great answers for and we came out and high five I thought that was great and the managing partner like called us afterwards and said yeah you guys are only going to do 10x and 5 years uh that's that's not going to work for this particular fund our LPS are looking for something a little bit uh sexier bigger um but I'll write a check myself um and that was that was an interesting I I that's a very expensive and timec consuming way to get to that money but that was one in particular that uh was very rewarding on a personal front but also so a little uh vindicating that like okay and we ended up yes we made that that 10x for that investor um which we're very proud of um but it was it was that it was a couple of just very smart individuals that got it that had experience in um similar Ventures and I would say to any founder out there that like you know if you have somebody that's been has a very similar business model that's maybe five or 10 years ahead of you pick their brain and ask them how they did it because uh not not only will they give you the advice but very often if they've been successful they're happy to write a check to follow on and and see their Vision uh Justified and that's what we did I think half of the money we did raise a little bit of equity here and there um came from people that were very smart and understood that these guys are on to something this is going to work I'll make my money back but I can also contribute something uh a little bit in the meantime so um it worked out um and I'm very happy for that you know would I do things differently it's it's uh for that that model I I know because I learned a ton along the way I I've taken those lessons and kind of Incorporated what I'm doing now but I I uh I thought it was really it was really great it was just always a pragmatic conversations first nobody was ever saying you know what is what is okay that's great um you doubled Revenue this year what's your billion dollar idea over and over again there was a lot of I get this how can we justify keeping the business going keeping our employees happy making this sustainable um it was just a good mindset no it sounds like was a worthwhile exercise You know despite that you know maybe you didn't raise and and how much Equity did you end up raising in total uh I was close to about six million over in the span of a year or two uh right kind of in the middle of the life cycle of the company and was any of that from the de in the parent company or those was all out yeah there was there was a little bit of follow on um it's a little kind of messy the international conglomerate but it was mostly individuals making the decision there were not not a ton of traditional firms or or funds that were investing at the time well considering when they invested I imagine everyone was pretty happy with your exit outcome they they were yeah yeah that's very much so yeah positive Pat in your back uh pat yourself on the back there and you know and then you also mentioned how you did multiple m&a deals and just you know for a high level like this is something that I talked to some Founders about that you know read some material success despite you guys started real early at the m&a but you know ultimately became a strategy um what ultimately triggered the idea that buying other companies was in your best interest and and how did you just start that process yeah um there's a couple different reasons we would acquire a company it was very rarely like they had Tech that we wanted but I could see that as a as a strategy um it was always to speed things up and that was that was the kind of the core uh thesis behind buying a company um I could give you like one example in particular that um we as I mentioned the business model um you know 10 15 years ago monster.com was a huge uh job board um still was very large uh they had a resume writing service inhouse um and it was a company that was started 30 plus years ago it was a brick-and-mortar resumé business that uh uh literal m mom and pop started um in the Pacific Northwest sorry and uh they built this company up when they went online they you know figured out a way to turn it into a digital product but they didn't start the way we did as as a digital product first and uh they had the exclusive relationship with with monster and as we're we're expanding and we're looking at you know what's the market what's the best partner we want to work with for cache for quality for volume and we were always targeting monster we couldn't figure out a great way to get in there and get get inroads in a timely manner you know like the idea that we're going to come in and pitch and say we're 20% better better margins so this what was our differentiation why would they care to use a new supplier for resumés um and so we talked with that company we got to know them very well and and kind of the ins and outs of their economics and we did two things first we got the relationship with monster but it was also uh you know we could go through all of the unit economics of the deal um and say we do this better we do this better we this better and work out uh something that was beneficial to everybody it was like great they were looking to retire anyway um we could do their we could do their product Justice it would not be you know a cheaper inferior version of their products um bory would be happy because uh you know it'd be consistent quality um all that good stuff I would say in general it's you know that was that was an instance where it just made sense to move faster there was never like a fundamental hurdle to prevent us from that one client or that one or finding somebody else to do it um but we instantly just were able to kind of grow and and grow better I I think we also in Ed quite a bit in company culture early on too we were based in New York City we had a great kind of open layout for most of our full-time employees so we brought somebody in and in that instance I think we had six or seven key hires that came in some of which are still with the company today um we were able to scale and not just treat it as like a cog and a machine across the globe um at at all points in time so all of those kind of factors in general um you know for us to get there would have taken two or three years and it was a very easy way to kind of model out okay if we do this now and um we could get this on our our balance sheet and we get these synergies and we get this relationship we can focus the extra cash we do have on new features or whatever is going to grow this this company Joe so just going faster I think is is the big reason we did it and were most of the businesses profitable that you bought or are they did they add that's a great question I'm thinking in hindsight I think every single one was I think there was they weren't all exactly the same as ours but they were adjacent very often it would be like a sole proprietor running spending off enough like lifestyle cash um where they were just grinding on something really interesting in the career space and we had kind of the the the muscle and the scale to turbocharge it um without sacrificing their vision and whatever value prop they were offering and it worked out really well and now I think about yeah I think every single one was already profitable when weire we weren't doing any kind of like um you know seeking out some Innovative Tech alone uh we did talk about that a bunch but but mostly it was just taking models that had already been proven by the market and turbocharging them no it's great and I I just you know note to audience it's just you know it's not right for most companies but it is a strategy and a it's an option in terms of like sometimes acquiring these companies if they are profitable be relatively cashless or low cash to buy company and add cash to your bottom line to boost your either Top Line bottom line you know performance and numbers and uh can help make you appealing to either bigger buyers or customers or whatnot down the road so I just glad you show that story with us and I you know encourage Founders to you know put a little plant the little seed in their head for for next time all right so you sell the company you know it's 2020 peak of Market everything's like you know everyone's at home but for some reason Market's ripped and uh you know valuations are through the roof you sell the company then what do you do first I took a year off uh my wife switched careers I just had my second kid or my wife had my second kid but um I was able to stay at home in quarantine and kind of really enjoy uh life with our our second kid um support my wife um and I I did some writing on I was thinking about kind of processing uh all the lessons learned over my career and is there something I could share with people formally um maybe I'll revisit that or keep continue that kind of going forward but that was very cathartic for me uh and I leaned on people that I I really liked working with or just interacting with in general um and the first big opportunity that I I took seriously was uh I've had I've had two very good friends for almost 10 years that were ex-professional football players American football played were stars in college and had a what they call a kind of cup of coffee with the NFL John and Jason um that uh I've just admired as friends but also like just kind of the grit they have in their career um you know you don't have to be a fan of sports or even football to kind of recognize that there's something inherently interesting and healthy about the the work that people put in to be really good at sports um and just like sports in general sure there's rivalries but they're not as toxic as maybe like political rivalries and things like that so there's there's all this like I just admired their their grit and their I wanted to kind of do something with them and so they they they called me up and said hey we have a pitch we want to start an American football team in France and I said well this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard I have to take the call right I mean like this is I'm not doing anything anyway um and I take the call and I start asking questions and my mind is still in uh due diligence and scale and m&a modeling mode um and I so what's the what's the marketing Budget on this what's I saw it almost felt like the Matrix at the end of The Matrix where I'm seeing these numbers come in and these guys are really good at everything else but I had this this Lane to run in where I thought I could really contribute um I could see putting in one euro and getting more than one Euro out in two years five years 10 years and so I kept having these conversations they said you know you should get involved and they couldn't really figure out how to connect it was a chicken and a problem that a lot of Founders have was like we have this Vision we know what it looks like we know it's going to work we got lots of people that are interested they know that it can get there but they can't figure out the traction how to take it from zero to actually one um and together I helped us come up with this tactic where the three of us were going to secure this expansion franchise for this team and just at 30 seconds on on football why we love it in general is that the NFL is the biggest most valuable league in the world um basketball is now drafting many of its first rounders in the NBA straight out of Europe something that didn't happen 23 years ago we think there's a huge opportunity to do that the NFL's playing all kinds of games in Europe every single one is selling out um and there's lots of teams there that are a little messy that have just in the last two or three years really gotten organized in a professional European League of football there was no no professional team in in Paris and the opportunity they presented was to have the first in the and and in this this Elite the most elite league in Europe um I thought that was awesome um and I helped us figure out what is what's what are the tactics how do we get it from zero to one or zero to 0.1 and it was let's talk to the league let's get the expansion franchise license let's find great uh French co-founders on the ground that originally brought this to us in the first place um what are metrics for Success what are um you know it's very similar to a resume writing company in a lot of ways you's still got to get people aligned and marching towards the same goals um and so that we the three of us put enough money together to fund it till the first game of the season um and then went out and raised money to turbocharge it and kind of take it take to The Next Step so kudos to you guys for you know conceptualizing that and and taking a leap of faith because that would not be the first thing I'd want to do when it comes to building a new because there there's some emotional overcorrection going on there too it's uh um yeah everybody in covid doing Technical startup due diligence versus like can I get on a field in Paris is probably the furthest thing from from that but um but thank you for that yes yeah quick plug for Founders looking for an edge raising Capital companies on thunder. BC have gone on to raise over a billion dollars since joining our Network it's absolutely free just go to join. thunder. BC to get started and if you leave a comment on this video down below with your company's name and the problem you're trying to solve you'll be ined to win a free coaching session with me okay that's it just comment down below now let's get back to the show putting together a package like so you guys did some friends and family uh round to to get this off the ground and and to get it going um when it look because I've talked to other people that have invested in uh American I mean uh soccer teams or you know European football teams um and they all tell me the same thing it's a you know pile of you it's a muddy Pit Where You pile money in it's kind of cool to put your name on it but in material value there's not necessarily an Roi but they're usually buying into established institutions things of that sort like what's it like kind of starting something totally brand new uh and conceptually new to the culture uh what was that uh well I think it's it's worth pointing out a tactic because to this is almost three years ago now but it was probably the most rewarding professional experience I ever had um and uh maybe I'll forward this to you Ken if you're listening thank you for this um we were hooked up with somebody an ex Nike executive who was a Hands-On product engineer was like instrumental in designing the Air Jordan way back and uh starting team sports at Nike and um just a positioning genius um when it comes to like you know the reason we all have the swoosh on our our every Jersey um we got a weekend with him um and this is something that we probably could never have afforded in a typical setting but because this is an interesting opportunity you said it's like oh well it's American football in France the first time ever this is a guy that's informed what all of the new a lot of new professional Jersey reboots look like today he works with all of them um he helped us walk through our vision over the course of a weekend and we came out with a blueprint of our values and our ethos and you know I I like a good offsite as much as the next guy but I think he had a language that we refer to daily that um when we're designing um a jersey we're releasing um the alt merch we're talking to a new vendor in in France that transcends borders that transcends a lot of the business that hasn't changed I mean our our vision and our our ideals haven't changed and it's sped up so many conversations be it like sometimes it's just like hey we need to deck out a stadium how much is going to cost and we just send them the brand book and that saves a lot of time but uh you know when we're talking to a sponsor and what's possible we've already got all of our ideas and our five 10 year plan as part of this I would say I'm I'm very interested in doing that again for anything that I'm going to work on is and it just is like a really it's a comfort blanket you kind of pull out every once in a while it's like when I kind of lose my way or have a tough decision to make you just kind of pull it out of the closet and look at it and be like Yep this is why we're doing it in the first place um so it's a very Sport Center sport Centric thing um even the language we use is very much uh you know the kinds of the the quotes that are in the locker room walls that you slap when you go out to the game it um it's fun I get those a little bit more now um but it it that's what's kept us going and help this navigate um and grind frankly it's like when somebody doesn't believe in something there's a couple ways you can convince them you could you could steamroll go straight through or you could learn their language and uh incentivize them to try it um using something they're familiar with um two examples I can think of with the when we started this uh the vendors at the French Stadium said like we can never sell hot dogs like this this is France you know this is the food capital of the world and um but this is American football it's like you have that hot dogs and you know we tried it the fans which are 99% French showed up and we we ended up with an elevated hot dog that's delicious with Crispy onions that I'd love but they came around to it and they said oh you're right it was the same thing with a mascot um a cartoon mascot this is this is beneath France you nobody's going to like this and of course the kids love it everybody loves it and now it's like you know defining it's uniquely American but also uniquely French and I think um it took a while to get there but that that's been our stance all along we we call it culturally real um we're not trying to put American culture in them you go to a game you definitely feel like here in Europe um and it's real and it's authentic so that's that's our mindset and you talk about how we execute that's how we go there um it's also made it a lot easier to attract Partnerships and investment I I think you take some any we could take away some real key lessons on the value of going through those exercises establishing values brand books as a startup it's tough to justify slowing down to make those decisions but it makes every feature decision faster easier quicker um and you get to the meat of things much much uh more efficiently and it's something that I see people struggle with all the time when you know simple basic questions that if they do go through that exercise you I said it just happens much quicker so yeah it does sound like quite the fortunate experience especi was such a for me it's it's such a big thing because it's not just about building a product you're creating you know an event experience you're creating a merchandise you're creating a you a career for you know athletes to pursue their goal and like play Under the big lights and all that kind of stuff so it's uh there's a lot of moving pieces so to have that kind of foundational uh element to it it's impressive um so if you don't mind me asking I'm just curious what are the economics of starting a team from scratch and into country yep um there are three Revenue drivers today um the biggest is butts and seats as we call it people buying tickets um it works out so we are fully professional team in that every single player is paid something um it's not outlandish many have to keep day jobs this is not a uh we're taking them off the market um but it's doing it's rewarding them for something that um they maybe couldn't do before and almost every single one of these people never expected to play pro football anyway they're either on the cusp of the NFL or have thought they were going to retire um and one more kind of caveat to make it really interesting is the league is very authentic as well as you're only allowed up to four American and and six others that are not your nationality so our team of 60 when we're a full roster 50% are actually French so we're not bringing in Gladiators for French people people to see these are these are their compatriots these are these are their their people and as a result we play uniquely French football against the German teams and the Polish teams and the Italian teams and um it makes it elevates it to uh that kind of fun you get every four years in the Olympics where there's a little bit of like patriotism and they don't they AR used to playing the Le meres the national anthem at beginning of sporting events we do that um it's it's a it's a great way so uh economics uh get people to the games football does not play a lot of games like a baseball so we get sick each year um we you know that's that's going to be a revenue driver um the second is merchandise uh and anything you could sell on top of that um always experimenting but people love it uh I love it I don't know how much stuff I mean I've got some stuff I got throw pillows I got all kinds of stuff right here so that is fun for me because we're always experimenting with with ways to interact with people and keep it fresh and then the last is I'd say Partnerships and sponsors um very hard to get up front but we are a vessel for lots and lots of Brands to get their message to Market it's not just about synergies and like can we get a patch on your jersey so you can see us on TV uh they're are really interesting we have an Engaged audience we'll get up to 5,000 people at a game what can we do with that there's no rules in the script like we can go in halftime and say Here's your product we're going to talk about it we're going to put it up on the Jumbotron uh there are the perks that are typical with normal sports like uh you get the Luxury Box and the uh the free tickets and all that and meet the players but what is so special about this league at this scale is that we have an audience but we're also really Nimble I've been trying to get uh a QR code painted in the end zone uh for for a partner of ours um I'm I'm experimenting with like will it work with 1080p do we need 4K uh but that's never been done in sports and that's something that is uh as a sponsor I would be incredibly interested in doing because there's no Roi but it's also not a marketing stunt but it's a really interesting story to tell there like we tried thing the same way that we're trying um and you know all of the benefits of sports what I pitch to the value prop is yes at scale uh there's only a handful of teams in the world many of them lose money and they're still valuable this is not just a value play a brand play this is very much like um you know we think we're at like in that sweet spot of we're small enough to be nimble and do really really interesting things which is the reason I did this in the first place if it turns into money and power and fame and riches that that's great but it's mostly you know we're just trying to make a collective smile more and you don't live in Paris do you I don't uh I do not and I I I speak pigeon French uh as well uh fortunately most of the things I talk about are colors and numbers and these are all things the first thing you learned in France so I can I can talk about that uh but I can't pretend that like I know the slang and the players are all 20 years younger than me too so there's a whole level of like different generational uh like but I know I don't live there I do spend a lot of time over there though yeah no I I think it's absolutely fascinating and and just for fun that's for all our you know SAS Founders here do you measure LTB to CAC ratios for your uh for your fans I so I do everybody else on the team thinks I'm a a huge nerd and they hate my Frameworks um I they like my Frameworks but they do not like having to follow up with it uh there is an entire Market of sports Tech out there if you want to get into something interesting um where they uh they're doing these profiles you know they they can just think about the technology somebody came to a game we have their data from Ticket Master or this or this or this and then they opened an email two days later this multi-world cross uh device tracking is just topnotch we're just in the infancy here um but you can imagine custom drip campaigns based on like oh they sat in this section where they brought their kids and um we we do this all the time we throw promos of like this this audience can we send them something that is ly them and makes them feel special but very much we're trying to Target an LTV it's like what's the likelihood they come to the game what is the action are we trying to get them to bring a friend next time come back themselves yes is the answer I've got spreadsheets on spreadsheets of uh CAC to LTV I love that I just you know want to I would imagine some of the bigger agent you know f um uh franchises you know work on this stuff at the scale now but it's awesome to see it as like kind of this Scrappy Nimble you know stage of Jin now so all right so you spent a couple years got that off the ground and you know that's sounds like it's you're going to continue to go on which is great but that's not where you stopped uh you have recently launched a new company called Biz Defender and why I think this is the very unique is you look at your track record you've had a lot of success uh and you went down a similar path to which I chose and full disclosure were part of the same foundary ecosystem um you started to the start your next company through a Foundry or what most people call like a venture Studio where you're you're not doing 100% of everything by yourself but you're still you kind of founding The Entity through another entity to kind of get it off the ground uh just kind of speak to that a little bit maybe give people a little bit of context to to interplay and why you chose to come on as like an operating partner to to launch what is now bis Defender and then we'll get the bis Defender yeah um you know even in the amount we've just had a conversation right now you could probably sense when I feel vulnerable and when I get really excited about something um I've been through the ringer emotionally and been demoralized by like feeling alone about something even when I thought that the tech or the product was great um and you know success is important it's what it's how you keep score what Define even if it's money or it's like the people you work with um I'm in a position where I can be very picky about what my day job looks like um and that that's one of the most protective of it's not the do I have x% of a company or a little bit less um I've always believed that like the biggest the best way to grow your own pie is to grow the pie for everybody so your slice is bigger um but that's not inherently why I did it um the fun story is um I started working with an executive coach um Eileen if you're listening shout out um uh and one week she had she task me the go apply did three jobs um which uh was felt very uncomfortable and weird and I know why she made me do it it got my pitch honed it got me thinking about the landscape I wasn't just sitting by myself just daydreaming about what could be um but I I didn't know if it was like do I want to found something do I to work for somebody I kind of was uh you know just in a Crossroads and so I did it and it's a strange market and somebody that started a resume company to do that again and to be emotionally involved uh really do some introspection was the top EX exercise but I did it and it felt low risk and one of the jobs was a pitch at interplay I talked about that spark I had with my co-founder Jeff um interplay took my call and I started talking to them and it was the only time I've really gotten that since that first call with Jeff uh you know 22 or 10 12 years ago now um so why did I pursue this and how did it kind of go down one um I got that spark I thought that was really worth exploring um at interplay um Dan the an operating partner who has essentially been kind of a co-founder in this with me um felt like he had a very similar mindset and energy but also a wildly different skill set he's a successful Banker that took a bank public and um here I am is kind of a product hacker um um but the big big reason is that I didn't want to grind for two years in a garage like I know what it's like I just did it like with the Paris team I did it with my last company I did it with every company I've ever done where if I could get a head start for year um it's not that I didn't like those tasks you become a better person you get very interesting stories I'd burn out and I know that about myself and I've I have burned out a couple times in my career and so I am hungry and fresh and have this 2-year Ahad start where the idea is beted um I have an immense say in it um it's not um there isn't a lot of Empire Building or like Turf disputes here we're all in it together it's a really great model um and so you know I'm I'm those are the big reasons I got into it in the first place why it appealed to me um we're taking like just a very similar risk reward profile um it just felt like the kind of this is the only way I'm going to have a job in five years that I really like um is to do it this way and not to just grind um and I'll let like the kind of financial success fall chips fall where they may you know you know I I felt pretty much the exact same feelings you felt when I made the decision to launch Thunder through through interplay uh very similar type of spark uh the relationship with Mark and Kevin and stuff like that so I think it's very interesting that you you share that and I bring I I asked you this question and bring it up to the audience because you know everyone chooses their path for their own reasons Equity is not always the 100% number one priority but often when raising money and talking to Founders I always see them like fighting for every you know um you know percent they can or basis point uh in reality sometimes it's a lot more fun to do things with other people and uh you know not kind of going on it alone and not everyone has the right makeup and you know organizational structure to you know go from zero to one uh so yeah thank you for for sharing that that that background ultimately will let to you know launching bu Defenders so what is this Defender we are the first and only Mass Market affordable solution for small business to prevent fraud um fraud especially small business fraud is rampant and it's growing quick um mostly Bor out of the advancements in Tech a lot of which started in Co we have lots and lots of conveniences be it like you know video chatting and uh um mobile deposits uh the tech is just outpacing the risks and as a result um as much as like five six seven cents of every dollar that's transaction with a small business is subject to some kind of manipulation or fraud um and so we've come up with a solution that we think is uh that I know is we can operate at a unit economic level at scale and to offer value to small businesses and we have a really interesting way we think we're going to get to markets there 33 smbs in the US uh many are single people sole Proprietors couple employees this is half the US economy um and they're neglected and it's it's hard to understand what fraud is most fraud Solutions are really expensive they take a lot of data and education and typically you have to know what you're looking for um I want to offer a product for the laundromat down the street for um the two startup Founders in their garage um that is easy Nimble uh low low efforts that can educate and and prevent risk for them kind of going forward and I I thought this is pretty interesting from that perspective because you touch on fraud in different areas that you a lot of people don't realize what going on until you're head with it um you know until it becomes a problem most people don't really know it's a problem because one it's embarrassing so a lot of people don't like talking about it uh and two it's just it kind of blindsides you you know it just kind of hits you out of nowhere and there all these creative crafty ways of someone maniacally you know try to manipulate how they present themselves to take advantage of a a business owner or business owner customers things of that sort uh so I think it's not only big Market 33 million snbs but also you know kind of a noble cause as well in terms of you know helping support the little man um so that's the idea that's where the company's at you've launched uh you people can check it out we'll leave a link down below um but from going from the joining interplay you decide to join the The Foundry um there's like a little bit of SE Capital that gets thrown in there um but ultimately what was that what was that timeline from I like this idea at interplay to you know taking that a small amount of seed funding to where you are now where you actually launch and are taking on customers yeah I uh I formerly Incorporated on Valentine's Day I remember that uh which is only seven eight months ago now um and I was the soul founder at the time I'm still might consider co-founders I'm not uh I'm not so proud that I I wouldn't um afford you know if the opportunity was was right for somebody um so in that time and the most valuable things I've been doing I've I've certainly been doing a lot of soul search she and spreadsheet model and all the things I'd like to do anyway but uh one thing that interplace been hugely value about at is trusted intros warm intros context um sped up so many conversations rather than me just knocking on doors people are take calls and they listen And they're they're hopeful and they understand it and even when they have a criticism that they don't believe this business is going to work they work with me and they have like just a great conversation and I I I've done this enough I just did it with in France of all places and like I know that this is a hard thing to do it's been awesome and it's just like to every day it's like I can't wait to get to get feedback negative feedback so that I can learn from it and you know Harden the business model and the second is um is that they do offer access to fractional resources um they have in-house companies that they've built this is not uncommon for a studio but what I think is interesting is I know a lot of the tools I want to use in this uh you talk about like fraud is a solitary thing and um you start putting the parallels together the reason I was draw to this in the first place is a job Seeker applying for a job and not knowing what's wrong with their resume is a solitary thing it's very important nobody talks about it there's a lot of parallels there which is what I'm draw I'm using to uh flesh out this business model but as a result I know what I need in marketing I know what I need in this and this and this um I'm not interested in standing up a huge bloated team just for the sake of doing it where Maybe if I was younger I did I want the ego I'd want the the interaction I want to do what's right and I want to do what I want to CH the culture and the company the right way uh but they offer these fractional resources through growth marketing or legal or accounting um that are very uh you know kind of almost at Cost but really smart people that can Flex up or down based on kind of a crazy idea I have um something that was the exact opposite starting a business in France of football you can imagine the number of vendors and stadiums and things like that that every single conversation has to be started from scratch I was craving that in a big way um and so you know I can prove something up I can try something if it works I get traction then I go find full-time hires in the the the ethos of what we want in this business and and scale it up from there so um that's where we've been and we're now just a tiny bit of CCAP we actually have an alpha product live it works it's there's a free and a paid tier um and on bis defender.com and um and I have uh know five or 10 different people working either for me as an employee or regularly with me as part of one of these fractional resources um and I I couldn't like it more and it's like you know as as we grow I'm ready to pour gas on the fire there's not a lot of conflicts with culture this is just like it feels like a wide openen uh playing field to bring back the sports reference to be to be expected well no Patrick I I appreciate you you know sharing that transparent experience and know educating Founders that again like what we learned in this is there's you we talked about bootstrapping Venture Capital but real you raise money from internally from a parent company to raising debt doing m&a you know doing friends and family rounds to start a football team and and doing adventure studio so I just you loved having you on to talk about the breadth of diversity of capital options that you chose that were appropriate for you know your path and and encourage Founders to to make this type you same types of considerations when they when they're building the next business um Patrick before we part ways here uh what would be the best way for people to to learn more about you and bis Defender uh you could either go to my personal site it has all my my socials and a little bit more backstory A P Butler pb.com uh but bis Defender is one click away from that and I'd like to be very transparent you can click through and see how I'm talking about it in public uh I'm very much hiring but I'm also a geek about mentoring and learning from you can hear it in a passion I just like bouncing ideas off people when I get the time and I tend to this is the learning this is the honeymoon period where uh I was talking with Jason sever like nothing's gone wrong yet right so I can I can take every call and I can take the constructive feedback and incorporate it so um yeah please reach out connect um I I love Serendipity too where it's you know some of my best most rewarding career experiences have come from really untraditional places um the other day I a wide receiver who had retired like called me up and was asking for career advice and I learned something about myself that helped my biz Defender product road map as part of that journey and that conversation so uh I'm a big fan of that um yeah connect shoot me a note and um uh I I would love to pay anything for it if possible no it's amazing I appreciate that and it's not often that you get to say my wide receiver called me for that was that was a purposeful yeah yeah all right all right pattery well thank you so much for being on the show uh it's been an absolute pleasure and we look forward to getting this out thanks so much Jason big fan of your product and your podcast and appreciate the time it's my pleasure thank you thanks thank you for watching today's episode as a reminder I'm your host Jason Kirby I have built and sold multiple companies with over 135 million in transactions as either a Founder operator investor across multiple Industries I'm currently the managing director and founder of thunder. BC where we help companies and founders all stages navigate what capital to raise and who to raise it from and help improve company's odds of raising the capital if you need help reach out to us at help. under. BC if you like Today's Show please share with your friends give us a like or comment down below as a reminder this show is published weekly and to get notified new episodes and our newsletter be sure to go to our website at join. thunder. BC and if you sign up today I'll send you a few freebies on how to negotiate a term sheet how to get a free list of relevant VCS and much more that's it no more Shameless plugs thank you and see you next week