How do you pivot to efficiency after a $100M growth round?

what it's like pitching SoftBank and getting a $100 million check. >> I just had to wait around for that Zoom call. >> Oh, Zoom call. Brutal. >> Worked. We had to move away from a triedand-true proven strategy, which was just keep adding tons of heads. >> What's one cheat code that you feel you've uncovered that you would want to share? >> I honestly think most cos and founders are thinking, >> "Hey everyone, welcome back to $100 million exits." And speaking of $100 million, today we have Chris Rudy with us, founder and CEO of Senosa, uh, who not only has surpassed 100 million in revenue, but also raised 100 million from the infamous Soft Bank. Uh, Chris, welcome to the show. >> Yeah, thanks for having me on, Jason. >> So, let's start with that. you know, Soft Bank uh not too long ago was all know the big big announcements, the big capital deployments and you know, you guys are in, you know, the the tech enabled corporate gifting uh space and you raised hundred million from SoftBank, you know, several years back. Walk us through what it's like pitching SoftBank and getting a $100 million check. >> Yeah, so uh to set the stage and timing. So, uh, SoftBank came inbound from an in from an intro from another one of our investors, uh, late Q3 of 2021. Um, they had already seen and heard about us. So, they came in with pretty savvy kind of background, uh, almost in the sense of like pitching us on how we were ready to, you know, continue to explode our growth. Um, which was nice. Um, and so it was, you know, went from a a coffee meeting quickly escalated, you know, within a couple days to a pitch deck to some of their internal partners. Um, and then, uh, about two weeks later, it was time to present to MASA. Uh, that was a an interesting one because basically they told me, hey, you've got, you know, the next six, seven days, block your entire schedule. I'll give you a heads up the day before he's ready. And then that's your go. And that's your go time. Um, I will say one bummer thing, this is, you know, just exiting COVID. Um, I I heard stories previously where he'd pick you up on his private plane and fly you back to Japan to pitch in person, but uh I just had to wait around uh for that Zoom call. >> Oh, Zoom call. Brutal. It worked. It worked, but was fun. >> So, you missed out on the private jet, but yeah, you got $100 million, so you know, not too bad. Uh, so what was it like? Yeah. What's a Zoom call like with Masan? >> Yeah. So, I mean, he had a large team on it. I want to say another dozen people, but for the most part, he was there. He was super knowledgeable on the background of the business, which I was impressed with. He asked some uh targeted questions about how we saw the uh the growth ahead. Um he was also bantering with uh two of the partners uh in the US that were kind of representing potentially our future board members um about their interests. So, uh, not only was he kind of, uh, you know, quoteunquote interrogating me, but he was also asking a lot of questions about the partners and how they saw, uh, Senoso's growth ahead. Um, but honestly, it was a lot of great questions. And then, uh, from there, uh, he went he said, "Thank you." And then, uh, it was a couple weeks uh later before we got the term sheet. >> What was that couple weeks like? Was there a lot of back and forth with their team or was it like silence? Um, so it was it's actually uh quite fast and with that it was a lot of uh their team asking me details making sure that everything was lined up and ready to go because once they signed the term sheet then they wanted to run with it next step. So um it wasn't like a dark period or ghosting me. It was more like okay this is the process over the next week we're going to talk details then then we're going to get this written up then you're gonna go and sign and then uh the money did take a little bit delay to get wired because there's some like international if if it it triggers some like international wire transfer you know homeland security something like that I recall that I was like why can't you just wire that today and it was like I think it took a couple months to to wire >> couple months woof that's a >> yeah there was some period in time where you had to fill out some paperwork with some government entities uh because it was coming from a a foreign entity. Uh but uh you know it wasn't like we were in desperate need of the money. It was just more of like the process. >> Yeah. Even >> they were really transparent in the process. So it wasn't like painful. It was just different than say my series A and B which was like you know once you sign you're like boom here's your money. Um or even my my first check from my seed round, she uh she the board member, she came and walked me over and gave me a a physical check, which was kind of fun. >> It's a nice uh nice uh gesture. So, you know, you get the So, you go through this entire process and it's unsolicited. So, they came to you to pump you full of cash and with expectations for growth. Um what was it from that point of like congratulations Chris, you now have $und00 million more in your bank account. What did you do? >> So uh we went and started uh aggressive plan mode you know so this was again end of Q uh like middle beginning of Q4 when this finished up. Um so we said hey let's plan for this next quarter where we can't immediately you know make any big changes. Let's get kick off the year with this grand new plan with $100 million. So we spent a couple months leading into the holiday of the end of 2021 headcount and hiring planning, sales forecasting, budget planning, really rethinking our entire business now that we had this influx of capital and now that we had this more aggressive growth plans because as part of that 100 million, there was kind of this uh opportunity to say, hey, hit growth milestones and there'll be more money to follow. So, how do you think about the scale you have to reach? Because at this point, you've raised 165 because you had about another 60 that came in through your seed A and B, uh, which we didn't really talk too much about, but you have $165 million prep stack at this point. And I'm not sure if you can you share kind of what revenue you were at that point? Um we were probably mid uh I don't know 50ish mill I don't remember exactly but uh yeah um especially in 2021 like though imagine what was kind of growth like back then >> um I mean back then we were still doing kind of the the doubling tripling of revenues year-over-year uh because we really you know raised our first round in kind of going into 2018 so 2019 2020 2021 And so we had some good growth years going into that. >> No, that makes a lot of sense. And so when you think about how you have to clear certain prep stacks and like scale this business to meet the expectations of, you know, SoftBank, um what do you put as the target? Like how do you think about the market and expanding sales and investing in the right channels that are actually going to yield that type of growth? >> Yeah, I mean we I mean prepack wasn't even a worry. We were, you know, decad billion dollar eyes lit up, you know, IPO in a couple years just uh on this, you know, you know, they were going to pump in hundreds of millions and more into the business uh to to fuel growth. So, it was really just how do we throw enough heads at this because this is again pre-AII era or pre this new kind of uh AI agent, AI automation era. Um, so it was really just like, you know, how many heads can we hire as fast as possible? Because at the time the math was, you know, more heads in in sales equals more revenue and then everyone else to support that. >> What do you set the targets to? Like how like do you just make up a number like okay we got a triple because that's what everyone thinks we should do or is there a more methodical approach of like we know that our threshold like our LGBT CAC in this channel is profitable less 10x spend there like how do you think about the actual tactical implementation? >> Yeah I mean it was a bit of tops down and bottoms up. So it was a bit of like okay where do we want to be if we needed to double uh the business again um and what would that look like and then bottoms up can we actually support this? And so that's where we needed to get more aggressive in our hiring because the bottoms up math didn't make sense um to meet the tops down approach. So then we said, "Hey, let's turn on the hiring flywheel." I think we quickly hired like 30 recruiters um to or maybe we already had probably like 10. So maybe we hired like 20 recruiters pretty quickly to then ramp up hiring across go to market. Um, so I think the the goal was how do we get as many SDRs, you know, uh, AEES, how do we get the marketing team ramped? Um, and then how do we carry on and hire everyone post sales to support the uh, all this growth? >> And so, you know, really, I imagine you had some kind of unit economics on your go to market strategy that you guys were going to quadruple down on. Um, I want to kind of jump ahead. This wasn't the planned chronological order of questions I wanted to ask. But now that we kind of brought up like investment in 2021 2022 in SDRs as traditional play that was very much expected of any company just 3 four years ago. How does that change today with the advent of AI agents and AI prolifating kind of the go to market ecos uh ecosystem? >> Yeah. So for us and you know aside from the forcing function of kind of you know 22 23 where we you know pivoted the business from growth at all cost to being more efficient and we can jump back into that but specifically we had to make the like uh as I would say taking one step backwards to take 10 steps forward on our on our outbound strategy uh because we had to move away from a triedand-true proven strategy which was just keep adding tons of heads And these, you know, SDR heads are doing very manual, very repetitive tasks, but that's okay because the formula works. You just add more heads, they book more meetings. Um, and so we had to take a step back to say, let's let's reimagine a world where we had less heads, maybe half as many heads, but we still wanted to get uh, you know, hit certain pipeline goals with this team. And so we we really had to go and you know audit every single minute of every day that these STRs were spending um and figure out where what parts of that could be automated um through you know for the most part workflows um you know some people call it AI. I'd say the first tack at it was more of like workflow automations. Um, and then we layered on AI for some of the uh message writing, some of the data uh kind of structuring um and some of the data orchestration. But it was ultimately rethinking our approach from lots of heads to okay now can we use AI and data to you know figure out all the target accounts? Can we use AI and data to enrich all these accounts? Can we use AI and data to uh create hyperpersonalized uh email sequences? Not what I would say mail mailmerge, but rewritten sentences based on structure to then write that with AI to drive better personalization. Um, and then how do we create email infrastructure to be able to send more? Uh, and then how do we roll that all out? Um, and retrain all the SDRs who are now refocusing their time away from manual tasks to, you know, responding to high highly qualified uh, replied emails in a unified inbox to, you know, phone calls to do and other highv value targeted uh, you know, uh, sales actions to book meetings. Um, and so we, you know, shrunk the team a bit but didn't lose uh, some of the velocity we had. We just rethought about it differently. >> And were you guys so going kind of stepping back as to like what led to that focus of efficiency? You know, you raised 100 million there's promise of more but ultimately you chose uh or you know it wasn't you know you to pursue more capital. So what what kind of happened from that sun like grow at all cost like and that was the era like that was expected and now kind of transitioning to more of like a real business making 100 plus million in. Yeah. So, you know, we raised that 100 million Q4 kind of the end of 2021. Went to start putting that to work in the beginning of 2022 and then I think it was like Marchish of 2022 when the Feds raised interest rates for the first time since 2018. Um, and then that kind of got all of our kind of got the entire world to, you know, especially our VCs to think, hey, what's going on? And then you know a quarter or so after you know this kind of zerp era VCs started to pull back a bit and you know our board specifically was more forward-looking saying hey you know money is not cheap anymore money is going to change uh you know you've got to figure out not this growth at all cost strategy and so we really rethought and you know I think there's two bets to be made you could either double down and say who cares we'll just keep bl you know spending a ton of and still play that growth at all cost game and cross your fingers that you know uh there is more money or you take control of your own destiny and you know stop burning as much cash and think about better unit economics to build a more sustainable cash flow business. And so we picked the latter of those um and then you know and kind of restrategized on what we had to do which was not hire as many people. It was reduce forecast significantly uh reduce budget planning and some of that was uh hard for some individuals on the team to fathom. some was, you know, back to a more realistic numbers that was actually easier to fathom and and uh actually back to kind of a real business than just propped up on venture dollars. Um, and then it was just back to doing what we knew how to do, which was, you know, go to market and sell our customers a solution they needed. So, what's that conversation like with VCs when you made the choice you're going to focus on being a a durable business? Um, and you present that to them and maybe the decacorn, you know, aspiration is no longer on the on the on the cards. And for, you know, Soft Bank and and your other investors that put in all this money and are, you know, expecting and or needing a return like that, what's that conversation like? So I think there couple different ways. One is I think in general there was you know you know mid late 2022 there was a general uh thesis amongst VCs and feel like there was just some like shared slack group where they all just went to the same bar and talked that it was like hey you know the interest rates are going up money's not going to be cheap anymore so be strategic. And so they it was not us coming out of left field saying hey new strategy we're pivoting. It's more of like, hey, good, you know, we're all on it. We're all in this together. This is the the the smarter strategy. And and it wasn't a strategy of us just giving up on our decacorn, you know, goals. It was just uh you know, I think the the the Zerp era, you you just tried to compress time and you tried to run so much faster to get your goals. So, it was just we were just like, hey, instead of us, you know, maybe doubling in in one year, it's like maybe it's going to take us two or three years to double again. So there's still like it's not like the demand for our business shrank or our product market fit changed or you know there was any uh necessarily like anything broken. It was just more of like you know the fueling the fire with infinite money to grow faster than you uh could ever believe just changed and and so that was just an agreeance to the board saying let's just like grow smarter than grow faster. Um, and in doing so, just like, you know, re, you know, rebuilding some of the the core kind of scenario plans. >> And this is something that we were talking about before we got on the call, but part of that growth plan was acquisitions. And I want to kind of talk about what what led you to that decision that acquisitions were a good idea and kind of what what did that plan look like? >> Yeah. So uh for the listeners, we've made two acquisitions. One acquisition was uh about two and a half three years ago. One acquisition was about nine monthsish ago I believe. Uh both were very uh competitors that were launched. One was launched about a year after us, one was launched about uh two three years after we launched. Uh but in the very similar space um and we competed them head-to-head in deals. Um, so there was uh I'd say probably two ways we looked at these acquisitions. One was financially for us and how this was financially advantageous and then two was like how would the market and how would our customers like uh to see these acquisitions come to play. Um and so on the first one financially uh these acquisitions uh helped with inorganic growth. Um, so it allowed us to quickly get, you know, hundreds, thousands of enterprise customers, tens of thousands of users, tens of millions of dollars in revenue overnight. Um, it also, uh, balanced some of the competitive pricing pressures that occur when there's multiple competitors all at some points chasing to the bottom. Um, it helped so preserved some of our ACVs. Um it greatly continued to uh showcase our market leadership and our category domination which was nice. Uh and then it also prevented another competitor from buying them first uh or another partner u buying them which was kind of a defensive play too in itself. So some was offense some was defense on the financial side. Um and then maybe even more so on the customer side and we've heard this from many customers where they didn't want so many choices um in that you know bringing these two companies under uh under ourselves allowed for more R&D dollars to focus on innovation. So we were able to spend a lot more on really cool new features which paid off in terms of our AI road map uh better economies of scale. So because we're in the business of also having this kind of GMV e-commerce marketplaceesque business inside of our SAS business uh we then can go and have better pricing power uh with our vendors and our suppliers which we then can pass along um kind of the Costco effect I call it at points. So our customers now across the board get better cost of goods uh which they love uh so they're saving more money. Um, and then I think ultimately, you know, this AI revolution we're in is all powered by how good is the data underneath it all. And because we have now data ac uh across three companies and a lot more uh you know data from all these different sends that we saw through Alice and through Postal and then through Syndos over the years that really amplified how precise our you know AI smart suite we call it is um and so I think that benefits our customers too. >> So you know clear strategic reasons to to make the move. How did you decide which companies to buy and like what kind of process did you run? Did you like hire an internal corp dev team? Did you outsource it? Did you, you know, um, you know, were you deeply involved in every part of it? Were you, did you have someone else kind of leading it? Like what was that process like for you guys? >> Yeah, so um, you know, kept in touch with all of our competitors, uh, over the years. Um and then you know it was probably around the softbank time where we got more serious saying hey nudge nudge you know what you know 1 plus 1 equals 10 how do we come together so there was a bit of courting them and kind of ongoing meetings uh to you know just build rapport but also to showcase that we're serious. Um it was also you know for for Alice specifically when we purchased them they had a really strong enterprise customer base and really really interesting AI data set. They were really early on in terms of like this uh suggest the right gift based on uh personal interest and based on AI. They actually kind of uh were marketing AI before AI was cool and so we liked that and so that was one reason we we picked them first. Um and then it was it also came down to the economics. You know I think there is a bit of like ballparking the yellow eyes and and kind of you know doing a little bit of this dance on like hey what kind of numbers can you share with me even though you're competitive uh so that I can then justify this to our board so that we can come back with a real LOI instead of just these hypotheticals. And so, you know, it was a little bit of like getting building trust and getting some data that we could then make some models uh to then go back and get an LOI approved to then use that as a starting ground to then negotiate off of. I think that part's a little tricky because especially with competitors, there's this feeling like you don't want to share anything, even a revenue number. And it was, you know, to me, uh, how do we break down that barrier of, uh, of like I don't want to share anything, I hate you to, hey, like, let's chat. Um, and so that was really hard. Uh, but also, you know, just time inensive uh to to get that across. And then ultimately, you know, picking looking at some models thereafter. So there was a big financial modeling which is like based on customers, customer health, you know, projections. it made sense picking one competitor over the other. >> Real quick, if you're a founder doing over five million in revenue and want to know what the best hund00 million plus founders are doing to fuel their growth, then make sure to subscribe to our $100 million exits newsletter. Get the playbooks that are proven on how to fund, grow, and sell your business. I'll even give you a curated list of investors that want to invest in your business. It's totally free. All you have to do is click that link down below, subscribe, do it now. I promise it's worth it. You won't regret it. You got nothing to lose. Go ahead, subscribe now. Back at the show. So, were you able to kind of get multiple competitors at the table to see all their data before and then ultimately you only chose one at the time? >> Um, no, not at the same time. So, it was almost like uh you know, we were able to get uh Alice first and that was based on them getting them to the table first while the others weren't quite ready um or we weren't there in terms of the numbers. Then after we bought Alice and they it made the conversation easier to go back to all of our other competitors to then say, "Hey, now we got two, you know, and now we were in a stronger position." Um, and then kind of same process again, courting them, talking to them, sharing numbers, showcasing why the combined entity could be better for everybody, um, including customers. Um, and so that, uh, then made the second one a bit easier. >> That's right. Yeah. You kind of built a little bit of trust when it's like, okay, they're legit. They're actually doing a transaction. They're not just like stealing our data and running away with it. >> Exactly. And to your point, like I was spearheading some of the conversations with their CEO, even some of their board, but then it was getting our board to talk to their board. It was getting data then to share with my finance team. I had like a mini uh kind of M&A team internally with some with some bisops, chief of staff, finance, uh COO, um where we all uh kind of quickly moved on this and we had looked at probably 20 other companies. So there were some smaller competitors, some some technology uh companies that we looked at. So we uh it was not just like we had our sights set on one company and then we went and bought them. It we did know that they were top of our list but you know we were also exercising that motion around others too. So running that process, having 20 targets, like kind of knowing the landscape of which ones would actually move the needle and it sounds like you kind of kept it really tight to the core, you know, wasn't looking like, you know, traditional bolt-on andor like expansion to to new market opportunities is really more >> strategy. Yeah. >> And seeing those synergies and that and ultimately was that your idea? Was that the board's idea? You had this cash sitting, you know, sitting in the bank account. Was this kind of one of the main ways to deploy it? And was the deal mostly cash or were you guys also doing, you know, earnouts and equity, things of that sort? >> Uh, all the above. So, was creative deal, cash, um, stock, etc. Payouts. Um, and I'd say it's a mixture of my idea to get started, but even some of the deal dynamics and some of the kind of there's a bit of getting the board on uh, you know, on board uh, because they were going to be uh, also you know they had to see that we were going to spend our cash in inorganic revenue than just bolting on more organic revenue. So there was convincing of the board but uh you know once we put the numbers in front of them it made sense. Um and so then it was just now they were on board is how do we you know convince these companies that they're ready to sell to us. Um and that was quite challenging and I needed the boards you know uh you know I needed their 247 help to go to the other boards and help move the needle. So you make the acquisitions, you did it, you achieved the the outcome. What's the integration like with a effective competitor? Someone that was like, you know, >> trying to beat you, trying to, you know, throw you guys over the bus potentially and now is like, oh, it's great here. >> Yeah. >> Like what what's kind of the transition and the uh integration experience like? >> Yeah. So I'd say the uh well one is you know immediately out the gate we didn't want to make any customer disruption. So it was a very easy saying hey nothing's changing you know until it needs to in the future could be a year out. So there wasn't an urgency to like turn off a platform or anything like that. So that made all of our customers or their customers at ease. Um there was immediately trying to integrate the team in and that was actually one of my surprises where the team both teams were so pumped up to be working together. I thought at first that was going to be a big risk where it was going to be like you know we were enemies that were joining forces and actually quickly became we were you know besties that were running uh with the same vision and same goal. Um, and I think that worked well because we both saw the market opportunity. All the employees, we both saw how 1 plus 1 could equal 10. And so we quickly, you know, were able to get a a strong culture together. And uh, so that was something that helped. And then it was, you know, really putting together a really strong timeline and strong like project plan for this and just like project plan it down to like the last task. We were just obsessed with uh putting this all together in Reich and having like a gazillion Reich tasks to make sure we thought about everything um in order to get this integration going. >> And so when it comes to that integration like was there technical hurdles? It sounds like the biggest risk is employees and that sounds like it went relatively well. Was there any kind of layoffs that occurred at the transition or was it like you took on everyone and just made you know you had the room and it all made sense? Um there was a few roles uh there was some roles that we didn't take on uh mostly because they were duplicative on the GNA side a few other areas that just didn't make sense but like customerf facing roles account managers sales a lot of those we were we were happy to take on in fact some of them we made a part of the deal that we needed to take on a certain percentage of them that needed to sign the new offer letters in order to join as a contingency on the deal uh because we were we really wanted the team I mean there these were great people that knew the product, knew the market landscape and again we were doing this to expand continue to expand rapidly. So we needed you know more people to help with that. Um so it was strategic to get the teams on. Um technology-wise there was you know mostly supporting the technology and then there was a bit of making sure uh for example with Alice that uh because this is was two and a half years ago as we wanted to transition out the platform over the next year and a half that there was parody with the uh Senoso platform. Um and we actually you know probably three three-ish months ago last quarter uh completely uh finished that integration and transition. I think it took about I want to say one or two quarters more than we expected. It was six quarters instead of four but that was an aggressive time frame anyway. >> Yeah. It's always interesting like there's always one thing to kind of put something in a Gant chart put on an Excel sheet and like kind of feel good about it. But when it comes to like the nuances of other priorities of you know moving needles like other things that just kind of come in to play it becomes difficult to uh see that exact timeline come through. What what would be your advice for anyone that's >> kind of going through that experience and or exploring that experience? What would be your advice to them before they you know sign the the the term sheet and kind of plan over a full on acquisition integration? What would be your advice to the founder experiencing that right now? >> I mean, one advice would be I wouldn't I wouldn't worry. I think there's uh you know, there's kind of the fear of the unknown where it's like, hey, don't I don't want to do M&A because I don't know how to do it. You know, our team was newbies at it for the first one. And we, you know, we knew it was going to be a challenge and there's going to be some learning curves, but it wasn't like impossible. Um, and so I think we I I think that's some advice of like, you know, don't worry about it. Uh, I think there's also like creative ways to get deals done that, you know, either a banker or maybe a savvy corp dev person can can help with, maybe an adviser, lawyer. But, uh, there's, you know, unique ways that you can get deals done outside of just putting all cash, all stock. You know, there's some really cool things you could do to financially engineer these deals. So, I think don't have that be a hurdle of like you don't understand like the deal dynamics. Um, and and honestly, I'd say, you know, above all that, I'd say don't worry and don't be scared to reach out to a competitor or to somebody you want to acquire like today. I think there is also this like, oh, they're a competitor, they're never going to reply back to me. But honestly, that's not true. And a lot of times those conversations you need to open up like a year in advance. Like I was talking to these competitors like years before we even kicked off this LOI process. Um and all and some of that was just you know saying hi at a conference we were both at. Some of it was just sharing like some like excitement for the category and industry but it was building enough rapport where I could then go back and have a serious conversation. So, it's something that's really important. I feel that a lot of founders don't realize that they they sit in their kind of little hermit crap uh shell and being like, "No, I don't want to talk to them." But like, if especially if you're not the number one, >> Yeah. >> you know, you're anything but number one, like you need to know all the players because if you want to be consolidated or get acquired or have an M&A opportunity, if no one knows you, they're not likely to make it a priority to acquire you. Like they might know you exist, they might know of your company, but if there's no relationship there, >> it's very hard to get a deal on it. At least fast. >> Exactly. The fast part is what I was just going to chime into. It's like you never know if there's a fast deal that just pops up and if you are out of the equation or you haven't ever talked to them, you're going to lose that opportunity. So, it's good to have that relationship, especially if there's a fast deal that needs to happen. >> Yeah. And like you know it could be like a company like yours and you know they're smaller like number five number six whatever player where it could make sense but if you just they didn't respond to your emails they were kind of off the grid and you guys have a mandate to move quick and or or if they or if they're you know going to be for like they're running out of cash. It could be an opportunity but like you didn't really have visibility. You didn't really know what's going on. So it's like is this my highest priority to acquire them in this current situation? Like you haven't had you're doing other things. you haven't had enough priority to uh or enough resources to kind of prioritize it. So that's I completely agree. I think it's very important for people to have these conversations as early as possible. Even if you don't know what you're going to say, just >> talk, you know. >> Exact. Absolutely. >> Uh so so well said there. So one of the things I want to talk about is um and correct me if I'm wrong, but you are co-CEO. So you have two CES. >> Yep. >> So what is that like and how long has that been going on for? has that been since the beginning or >> uh no so coco uh has been in effect I want to say about a year uh plus or minus maybe a little less so I I'm the original co-founder and CEO um I uh I'd say I had a really strong COO in the early years um who was my right-hand woman and she was amazing um that transition transitioned out you know maybe six years in. But I really liked that super savvy operator partner in crime. Um, and so brought on this current coco originally as kind of a of a COO/chief business officer. Uh, but really wanted to uh elevate his his role into a coco for a few reasons. One is I think it prevents this like uh go around the other person which I had experienced before where they like uh maybe a you know a colleague or an exec would go to the COO and then be like oo didn't get my answer right I'm going to go to the CEO and so that really uh was uh a big problem in in terms of just how we could co-execute because the goal of it with coco in my eyes is we can divide and conquer we can be two places in once you know right now I'm on this podcast he might be talking to a where, you know, after this I might jump onto a a specific strategic initiative and he might be on another one. Um, and so we can do two things at once. Now, you know, that doubles our output, but it also then, you know, it requires us to be lock step in handinand. It also allows us to trust each other in certain decisions and so we meet often and are on the same page and neither of us have this crazy ego. So I think it does take a certain type of personality uh that you know can you know run in this kind of dual co-CEO type of like two in a box type of leadership role. Um but allows us to focus on our strengths too and we're passionate about. So I'll jump into something that I really love and he'll jump into something that he loves and we often times love different things. Um uh so that's been really critical and I think there's uh been other examples of this in terms of like tuna box leadership. I know IBM uh you know did that really well. There's less coco than I see but there you know co-founders are often in the early stages pretty common albite. They're not coco but they're two smart people trying to or or more trying to execute and run fast and and own you know the decision in different areas. Did did you promote this person from within or did you recruit them? >> Uh recruited them uh externally with uh and then promoted them into this. >> Okay. So it wasn't co to start but then you know after some time it you know made sense. Uh I do appreciate the you know uh passion for two different things that you enjoy two different things like you get to dive deeper into things you want to do and the things you don't want to do he likes to do. And I think that's kind of the perfect corporate marriage in that regard to um to navigate because yeah, it's like >> there's a lot of things that CEOs don't want to do, but because they're CEO, they have to do it. Um and it's often the coco is often frowned upon because usually it's around like final decision- making and it's often very frowned upon in early stages because like you're still figuring out like if you are having a dispute on right versus left. >> Yeah. But I think later stage it there I could see this happening more frequently especially with like founders still in the business. Um and then I also think that there's opportunities that I I take on whether it's maybe some thought leadership, maybe it's a customer meeting, maybe it's a new project around M&A that I maybe wouldn't have had enough time to if I was doing 100% of everything. So, I do think it opens up some new doors that, you know, maybe if a solo CEO wouldn't have uh the bandwidth on. >> No, 100%. And I think it's it's good to shed light on that. Like there's, you know, it wasn't two egos battling that couldn't be satisfied without being CEO, which is most of the story that occurs. Um, but I think a lot, you know, it's it's often a very symbiotic relation between like a COO and a CEO. It's just, you know, >> correct. I think that's the biggest analogy is the CEO COO. Um, and those work really well together. Um, I also think that, you know, having a two cos too, it does, uh, build like long-term buyin, too. Not that a COO isn't that way, but you just have, you know, it it greatens our chance that together we both can lead this to, you know, on for for infinite more long. >> Let's talk towards the the future. So, Senos had this history. you know, you guys raised all this money. You've come to successful unit economics that are starting to grow the business and as you look at growing, we talked about AI as a costefficient way to to scale the SDR effort, but also growing internationally. You know, you're a US-based company, um, you know, on the West Coast and you got to get to hundreds of millions in revenue. That's like the mandate. That's what you got to do. and like going international and most of your clients are probably already international, you know, businesses. Um, so how do you think about international expansion? >> Yeah. So for us, you know, we expanded internationally maybe five or six years ago. So we did it uh probably earlier early on in our journey partially because our customers were pulling us there. uh because we had a lot of our customers that uh were you know global fortune you know 1000 companies and they needed uh they needed us everywhere. Um and so we grew our operations internationally first. Uh so we grew our customer support, our logistics, fulfillment centers, marketplace, all of those came with but uh what we didn't do is we didn't go go to market internationally while we were doing that and that was on purpose because we wanted to get uh you know we wanted to build the infrastructure to be best best-in-class and and I think uh you know you uh you can build a really good support and operations uh but throwing on go to market all at the same time can be a lot of moving parts. So we said, hey, let's let's let's operate in those regions first and then let's roll in a go to market function because there's go to market is going to then cost a lot more when you want to invest in marketing and sales etc. So, you know, for us it was, you know, how do we build the operations then follow on the go to market? What does that plan look like? Uh, and then, you know, how do we, you know, make sure that there's, you know, less of a culture gap. So, how do we really focus on, you know, bringing them here, bringing us there back and forth, making it feel like one company. um you know how do we prep our product for localization for other parts of going international which uh you know there's a lot to it than just like hey let's throw a person in London and tell them to start selling um so that was something we had to really think about um and then you know what are the what's the what's the marketing mix what's the partner strategy we had to rethink a lot of that because it's not just rinse and repeat it's somewhat of a new strategy new partners, new go to market channels. Um, and so there was a lot of replanning and and and rethinking that as well. >> So, how do you in this situation like do you go and do you get advisors? Do you use consultants? Do you just hire like rock stars from the get-go to like how do you kind of navigate these learning curves? >> Um, I uh I think you could do all those. What we did is we got some adviserss who've been there done that who were on you know whether it's seuite across the board CRO CMO CEOs so I built some advisers that had expanded internationally and so they were able to you know point me in different directions share war stories and then I think it's critical to have like a really strong inmarket leader for where you're expanding into. So for us, it was natural for us to expand from the US into Europe first. And so we wanted to build that out. So we b brought in a really strong European, you know, head of AMIA uh leader. Um and so I think having some some strong inmarket leadership is critical uh to building out the team and having like the understanding local culture, etc. >> Yeah. Yeah, cuz I I think that's one of the big things is just like there's it's you know just to like throw an American over there would be you know pretty uh pretty wild to expect the result that you'd hope for. But what's kind of the how do you kind of navigate the cultural differences of you know like for me like being in the UK and working with people here in the UK versus people in like New York like they are wildly different mindsets in terms of risk tolerance and work expectations, quality of life expectations. How do you balance the cultural differences between the the different teams? >> Yeah, I mean, I think you uh you need to be a little bit empathetic, but you also need to just be curious and in learning mode. Um, so I think it there's a little bit of how do you understand and and educate yourself as you go? Um, instead of jumping to conclusions so quickly that someone's doing something with negative intentions and just maybe someone's, you know, doing something because it's culturally culturally normal for them to do that. Um, and that could be their work ethic. It could be how they respond to customers, how they are engaging in group discussions. So there's a bit of like you know uh a learning curve there but then I think it's just how do you uh you know rally the global team but also you know know that you're going to have regional you know cultural kind of uh nuances and that and that could be exciting too and you know I think at times like our uh Dublin Ireland team had unique things that they did and you know unique holidays they took off and unique happy hour you know or you know things that they cared more about in terms of their work life balance in the US team and you just have to know that and let that happen. >> So that's good to hear because like I feel like a lot of people think about international expansion just forget about these nuance details and it's like yeah grow internationally there's tons of market opportunity there's a lot of steps to get there. >> Exactly. And so, you know, we covered a lot and I think it'd be interesting. I want to kind of just take a a brief moment to kind of go back to kind of your seed stage, Chris, you know, >> and you know, kind of looking back to what you've accomplished in what has been like eight, nine years since since the seed. >> Um, what's different about Chris then and Chris now? >> Gosh. Um, got more gray hair in my beard, that's for sure. Uh, no, I think, uh, you know, the way I think about rallying the team, I think different. I have to, you know, lead more by uh, being, you know, empathetic that the stage of the company is. I I, you know, I was one to quickly get in the weed, slack a random employee and say, "Hey, let's got a new idea." And that you know now can be perceived as like whoa the CEO like he's you know messaging me like am I in trouble? So I think that the company it's the type of employees that see or a react differently to types of actions a CEO can take whether that's for the positive or for the negative. So I think there's a bit of like retraining myself there. Um, I think there's also thinking about systems and processes versus like quick ideas that I want to like get done overnight and the agility. I think preventing whiplash is critical. So that's where like really building out like a really strong like OKR process to align you know the hundreds and hundreds of people around the same you know quarterly goals quarterly OKRs and uh everyone's you know trying to you know do things and take action all down to the same you know metrics we're shooting for. So I think that process in OKRs was something that like I didn't I didn't even know really why we would ever do an OKR at a seed stage to like now it's like mission critical for running the business. Um and then I think about you know how do I spend time is do I you know spend time on uh you know less than in the weeds of like at seed stage I was like writing product specs um and you know QAing bugs on staging uh but now it's like okay what's the bigger product vision and how do we you know extrapolate what that could look like over years but then bring that down to what we can articulate to our customers over the next couple quarters and then how do we uh prioritize that and actually build a road map against it and how do I not you know overly u micromanage but try to lead by you know sharing vision and then taking my team and you know knowing that I have the smartest people on the team take action so I think there's a bit of you know translating vision to execution >> a bit presumptuous but who helped to become that mature leader because to you you call that a lot of pitfalls a lot of founders have especially early stages and it's like I'm assuming that's coming from a place that someone called you out for those things. It wasn't just like you were in a box and you magically came to the conclusion that you need to evolve. >> Um and so I'm curious like how did you understand that you had to start evolving as a leader? Was it your team bringing these issues to you? Was it board members, adviserss, coaches? like how did you kind of build that knowledge base to decide and work towards evolving as a leader? >> Yeah. So, some of it I think is just learn by doing or learn by failure. Uh you like the not getting too in the weeds and you know freaking out an employee was like a slap on the wrist like years and years ago where I sent something to an employee and then they like escalated to their boss, their boss got to their boss and they got back to me and I'm like oo okay. So a little learning there which I just have to you know enter those conversations slightly different. Um also uh you know there's another scenario where I was like wanted to you know roll out this big new initiative and the board was like yo yo yo this is like we've got you know let's present this at the next offsite and then talk about and then you know add this into a future you know OKR not just like a do this now. So, there was a bit of like, hey, uh, board feedback that was helpful. Um, and then I think there are some adviserss that I have that are amazing. I have a a sizable personal advisory board that I'll, uh, pick their brain on from time to time. That's helpful, um, as well. So, I think surrounding yourself by smart people. Um and then um you know I think I uh you know spent some time at you know other small startups before starting the company and saw how those grew um and was able to still be you know really good friends with those CEOs and use them as advisers as well. Um so I still frequently meet with my last company CEO at talk desk but previous company CEO. Um and so those were were helpful relationships too. I I see a general theme with you in terms of like being open to conversations um and you know listening and having you know like whether it's your competitors, advisers, boards, other you know companies boards um you know it's at least the one AI proof thing that uh us humans have is other human relationships they'll make the world go around. Um, so just a a fun question here, like what's one cheat code that you feel you've uncovered that you would want to share? >> Um, I honestly think going back to my adviserss, I have this advisory group of more than a hundred folks and I think that's kind of a cheat code for me. Um, I think yeah, I think most uh CEOs or founders are, you know, thinking, hey, I got to get one, two, three adviserss here and there. But I said, "Hey, I want a larger group because there's going to some of these advisers that were helpful uh at seed stage will be less helpful at series C stage. Some that you know at seed stage didn't care about international now are pros at international. So there's different parts of the business where different adviserss can be more helpful. Also advisers are on their own journey. Maybe they're super helpful and they get pulled into a new company and are don't have any more time. Um, also the network effect of having that many more adviserss is is super critical. So, um, yeah, I I would say my advisory group uh has been a secret weapon for me. >> How do you incentivize and structure 100 people or is it just you've called 100 people over the years or or is it like a formal? >> It's more formal. I offer up some uh micro equity in the company, but for the uh for the most part, they're more bought into just wanting to give back and help Chris. Um and I give a monthly update. I have given monthly updates for, you know, eight, nine years. So, they've been able to track every month for nine years. uh how the business is going, what, you know, highlights, low lightss, wins, opportunities, and then some personal, hey, I had a 2-year-old, I have a 2-year-old son now, and so they got to see that journey uh come in the kind of PS notes. Hey, my son turned two, you know, blah blah blah. And so, that also uh was critical. So, I think it's, you know, more just uh, you know, showing them that they want to be along on a journey that's interesting. And I think some advisers too are, you know, stuck in their day-to-days and it's interesting for them to context switch or it's interesting to them for networking with other peers over, you know, a common theme of, you know, helping Senoso be successful. So, um, I don't think it's all about the money. I think, uh, there's other benefits to it. No, >> that's valid. That's good to hear. Um, well, before we, uh, wrap up here, is there anything that you wanted to share maybe about Zeno or anything else that you wanted to kind of mention before we wrap up today? Um, you know, I what for those of you listening who are, you know, maybe hadn't heard of Senoso, you know, we're a corporate gifting platform that helps sales and marketing and founders uh drive pipeline and revenue. So, you know, it's a tricky world to build pipeline these days or to book meetings, especially if you're only using, you know, digital channels like email or ads. And so, we've uh, you know, built a pretty cool platform in the global infrastructure to help with that. So hopefully I can help another founder, you know, book more meetings, hit their pipeline goals. So always happy to chat one-on-one, too. Love networking with early stage founders looking for advice or advisors. So, you know, hopefully you can put my LinkedIn in the show notes or my email uh chris@sendoso.com. Happy to chat with others, too. >> I appreciate that. And uh most important question, can my openclawbot connect to your MCP or API to send gifts? >> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. We do have an API available for that and and MCP server is coming any day now. We've just perfecting a few more things on it >> because that's been my biggest pig. I want to do gifting, but it's just like Yeah. >> I don't want do I don't want to do gifting. So I'm obsessed with open a lot of ways to automate it. >> Yeah. All right, I'm uh might be a future customer. Um Chris, it's been an absolute blast having you on the show. Your insights on raising soft money to acquiring multiple companies to just your general leadership advice has been super valuable. Um we'll make sure to leave uh links to your well, we won't put your email publicly uh listed on uh on YouTube, but uh if anyone wants an introduction to you, uh leave a comment down below and I'll reach out to you to to help make that introduction. and um you know really appreciate you coming on the show and look forward to kind of seeing what's what's next on the Senosa journey. >> Thank you so much for having me on Jason. This was great. >> If you were inspired by today's episode then go ahead watch this next episode. Promise it's worth it. And if you really enjoyed this last episode and you want to connect with the guest I had on today, make sure to leave a comment down below telling me why you would like an intro to this guest and I'll make it