How do you structure a SAFE with a token warrant for a Web3 seed round?

you know maybe if the first few checks took a month and a half to close the last month of 30 minutes to close you know welcome to fundraising demystify the podcast where we uncover The Untold Stories of successful Founders who have raised Venture Capital to bring their Visions to life join me Jason Kirby your host as we dive into the Hidden Truths of the fundraising game we'll explore different strategies tactics lessons learned from these entrepreneurs who have figured out how to win the fundraising game in their own way whether you're a budding entrepreneur just getting started or an established founder looking to scale your business this podcast equips you with the knowledge and inspiration to conquer the fundraising landscape welcome to episode 3 of fundraising demystified today we have Ramo Verma on the show with us and this is a unique story we're talking about a father and son founding story that's raised Venture Capital something you don't hear about often and we're going to talk about how they successfully close the two and a half million dollar seed round Against All Odds after the crypto Market had begun to collapse and we talk about how they raise solely off warm intros what that experience was like building a company with your father and why they decided to delay their fundraise announcement and the Strategic decisions around that and many more tips so I'm excited to be able to share this story with you let's go ahead and get started hey everyone this is Jason Kirby here excited to be hosting Rommel is joining us from outdefine uh thanks for joining us Rommel thanks thanks for having me Jason it's nice to be on the show yeah I know great to have you and um it would be great for you to just give the audience a little bit about your background and kind of what led you to just starting out Define of course yeah so I'll Define as my second lunch about startup I'm the founder co-founder and CEO it's it's funny because I'm building out Define with my dad you know and they have like a you know close to um 25 30 year work experience different so you know people usually do their best friends but um building with my dad Tinker Cloud Define as a decentralized talent Community uh its own token based uh Community where people can find jobs and Technologies such as web3 they can learn more about how to get a job in these in the space and also earn tokens their own that we are launching for our users so it's a user-owned community um my background starts off with uh you know back in 2013 2014 when I was just finishing my uh autograph at Purdue I had gotten a you know a scholarship there I had come from India and didn't know how to pay for school so you know Purdue paid for it so went there and I was starting with my professor and he was teaching me things like elliptical cryptography and uh you know helping me get into the cryptographic space from there and I was very much a theoretical computer science student and that helped me go on to do my masters at Stanford where I was doing research again on blockchain and crypto that's funny because you know in the uh back then you know AI was very popular and it still is very popular because you would go to the machine learning classes and the AI classes that you know like Andrew ingwood run and that would have like 400 students in it and then you go to the blockchain class and that will have like 16 students in it you know so you know visiting researchers starting blockchain uh was very interested in the space from you know since that period although after that I did spend about four or five years at Google right out of college uh to yeah you know I was first as a software engineer on Google search for about three four years and then I was a product manager on Google Search and uh and then I went on to join you know but you know after that we went on to create equity and co-found Equity it was an alternative investing startup that help people interest outside of stocks and bonds so you know teamed up with three co-founders and we did that and it was in that area you know where you could raise uh back in 2020 2021 and we I did that as a CTO and took it to about 100 million dollars in assets under management and less than a year and then you know I was always passionate about crypto and like I said my uh my father was also wanted to you know always had a life standing dream to you know build this company he came from the HR Tech space so we spent about like you know about two three years just talking together and him running a company uh and be iterating and us pivoting both us you know first time second time Founders and then we came together we built out the fine into what it is today and then we went on to race our first round of funding uh back in 2022. that's an incredible story so you kind of come to the US as an immigrant go to your top ivy league schools have an incredible you know opportunity there and then you know get to work for Google and go on to great what looks to be a successful company and went out and raised money and uh I said some you know amazing Milestones but then kind of taking the opportunity to start a company with your dad that's that's a that's a story that most people don't hear very often I couldn't imagine starting a company with my father you know great love him but you know couldn't imagine being side by side uh you know so kind of you know tell me a little bit more about kind of why you left Equity to to kind of start um out to fine yeah I think uh it was really at an inflection point for me also where you know the uh the company that you know my father was running also and you know uh I wanted to get into the blockchain and the crypto space and you know there was a place where that company was also you know almost it was doing okay but it was almost running as a you know like a talent Services business at that point and we wanted to do something that was a lot more impactful for users and uh so you know not like taking a solution and like you know trying to see what that is but trying to see what the problems are out there you know uh with how remote work was quite inequitable for a lot of users and you know it was just a stark contrast where you know the passion that you have for solving a problem like at a place where you're helping like billionaires get richer you know you have like eight a few hundred customers and you're helping them you know make a lot of money to like helping like you know tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of users actually get their jobs and actually earn money so that kind of like an impact that you could create uh was a big thing and you know that's like the truly thoughts of crypto also that you can help really you know bring forward and create a more Equitable future so that's why we started and I joined with my father and then we went on to raise capital and go from there so that was the motivation no it's cool I appreciate you sharing that and so let's talk about the raise so uh you guys raised about a 2.5 million dollar seed round that you announced in December but from what you told me it sounds like you actually closed around several months prior probably kind of before the major collapse in crypto so kind of walk us through that that timeline uh from when you and your father kind of get started with the company and then when you guys go out to raise to when you successfully closed yeah so we definitely announced in December um and uh the reason for that was because you know we we talk to our investors and you know seed rounders when you have a Prof certain promise and you have early traction and then you want to be able to capitalize on that and requiring us to get our product and our messaging and our token in a good place made sense for us before we actually started to put fuel to the fire uh that is why we thoughtfully like held off the uh announcement but although you know in hindsight it was the same time when FTX was collapsing so you know there's not much said you know like one thing is that not to fight the market you know like not to you know listen to the market sentiments because it can make a big difference but uh uh I started the fundraise process back in around February marches when you know as a first time uh CEO trying to go and raise uh capital institutional funding and the process itself was maybe a three to four month process and it required like my full-time effort like for you know three to four months of just going out talking to maybe 80 85 funds and getting all sorts of like you know interesting responses and uh you know having four or five of them really believe in what you're doing and wants one ball starts rolling as you know the canonical story you know the others start to come in place like I remember like one of our investors we had to lead investors jump crypto and TCG crypto so um uh you know like for some of them it took maybe a proper month month and a half to do due diligence right you know after the first conversation but they were all through you know warm introductions to different members of the community but you know I remember the final you know half a million to a million that we were trying to raise that happened like 30 minute calls so that you know that compression of timing from starting in like you know February March all the way to June when we actually close around uh the first two three months is like you know you have like they're getting like half a million of check-in and then you're getting another million and then suddenly the rest of the round closes so quickly and like you know a couple of weeks it was very very interesting to see but I never went out with the uh mindset that you know it is a very honor and an ambiguous process and you know it is a very tough one but you need to prepare yourself for that so you know it sounds like you you started a company in in 2022 so did you did you build a product before you went to the fundraise or did you kind of fundraise to get to build the product yeah so the the we were already doing about four hundred thousand dollars of transactions because my father was running the company about a year before so it was not uh not necessarily that just on an idea we went down to raise although that does happen and that could have happened if the market was back like how it was hot in 2021 where you know in some of the companies that even I saw in my last one and also in others were just on an idea people would raise like a very you know massive valuations and raise like five six million uh you know so that was not the case in 2022 because the markets had already started to compress since November of 2021 and you know things were in a tough round well all the things are much tougher now but you know things were still pretty tough back then yeah so so you know yeah and so um okay so you guys already had built a product that got to around 400k in in overall transactions on the platforms he had some you had some traction he had some validation um you know you mentioned he met with about 80 VCS like how did you go about getting those those meetings with those VCS what was your strategy yeah so um I think one of the things that was very important to do is to focus on getting uh warm introductions like none of the fonts that we reached out to or any angels that we got connected to was you know as a cold Outreach so just being part of the ecosystem especially you know the San Francisco and ecosystem made a big difference so because you know that was one of the things that I noticed that you know when we used to work at Google we were so much in our own world and we also I you know shielded from everything that's happening outside it that you know creating that connect with people makes a big difference in being part of some good communities makes a big difference like home deck really helped the zugler community which is the ex-google community really helped now there's always you know uh uh you know I'm someone who likes to help out the founders also so you know when you know I asked someone if hey this is what I'm doing and this is where I ended they would always make an introduction uh so warm intro is really help but the funniest things is that uh you know one of my friends would write a you know article about us on their newsletter and then suddenly ndvc would hit them up and then you know they would go on to put money in the company or you know I'm just like meeting someone from this Google community over uh you know over a conversation and then they would go ahead and like you know invest which is funny because you know through that conversation we also got an acquisition offer right before our foundries so that was like you know just talking to people and the community helps you out and they make intros and suddenly yeah like at home sheet and you're like that's that's pretty incredible so warm intros really work but but it's easy to set them down and it's always a process and it's not a snapshot like one one time in uh yeah and so with the with the warm intros did you ever find yourself being in the room with the wrong person like you took a war Metro someone said hey you gotta talk to this person you get in the meeting and you're like both of you are like this was a total waste of time um not so much so because you know I think generally you don't know how different funds are thinking about them but you know about you but uh when I used to do my research I would kind of get a sense of why uh someone would want to talk to you and uh they only there were a couple of funds who reached out to us directly on LinkedIn and then you took a lot of interest but only at the end they did not invest uh and not just they're not invest you know they would go radio silent and then you can get a sense that you know they're probably here just to gather information for their company so you know we had a lot of conversations so just doing our homework on every fund and being very realistic of what you can do like if there's a you know top tier phone but you see there are competitors might not be worthwhile to talk with them just because you know it's about feeding uh information it's really about finding the one suit to leave and you unlike some of them you would in in the conversation it would be very nice but later on either they would go radio silent or they would be like hey you know we invested in someone else that's similarity and I'm like that's that's that's part of the process you know there's no no hard feelings you know no and I I agree and it's it's one of those things where it's you know a lot of Founders are concerned about meeting VCS and they'll kind of like take their information share with a competitor and whatnot but it sounds like you know you still put yourself out there but you know kind of put the best foot forward and focus on feces that had high conviction and you and what you were building um and you know the radio silence thing you know because I it's a nice way to put it but a lot of you know ways I see it is like you get ghosted you know they you know take a bunch of information you're excited you're like oh great this could go somewhere and then they just cold nothing you're just like you spent all that time with me and nothing you can't give me a response um sorry I appreciate you sharing that and so um you had mentioned that you would rate you started the raise in February you had a bunch of meetings and then when it came to that close yeah I guess when did you get your your first term sheet I guess how many term sheets did you did you get for the round yeah since it was a seed round and we went on a safe um Safe Note but it's also safe for the token warrant which I'm happy to talk about because it's you know we are also building our own crypto token and you know the investors are particularly interested in like you know purchasing the token also right so so this is a slightly a different uh instrument but uh and the way it happened is I think you know uh there were two three different fonts and the good thing I wanted to share with you Jason is that you know I had two very mature people who were supporting me through the fundraise process just because it is a very difficult uh journey in general it's a very ambiguous one but you know because my co-founder has a lot of experience navigating like I said he's my father he has done a lot of companies he took like an Engineering Services Company public to maybe two two and a half billion and uh you know public listing as a key member and leader and then you know one of my board members whom we have also has you know ran companies Venture perhaps a coil packed uh and you know has exited maybe three four times so having their guidance throughout the process was very um very very important so that we knew exactly uh you know how to approach things so you could start to get sense when someone would be pulling back or someone is taking interest to take another call so uh jump crypto was our first investor and you know they uh you know we connected with them through someone writing about us on the newsletter and then you know someone there fun reading it and then sending it to someone else and then you know having a call which moved two three times and then finally talked we connected and they really just believed you know and what we were trying to do with helping people get like you know more Equitable future and having like you know token based Talent at work so uh they I think the funny thing is I think we close them in a week this time which was pretty fast uh but uh but you know everyone else who was maybe thinking about it during the due diligence doing their own independent uh research you know when we said to them hey we have this fund over here then they're like okay maybe let's talk to them and also see how they invested so there can always be a very like signaling game you know like you know once you have uh someone get through then there adds a little bit of you know pushing the pushing over the barrier right so then from there maybe it took a week to two weeks to close with a jump crypto uh but then after that you know you had like TCG crypto which was our other lead investor they came in with uh on others significant portion of the round and you know they have been doing digital versions on us for a month month and a half uh one thing we did is you know I have seen a lot of people in the safe round space they give multiple different valuations to different investors so they're like early ones get less and then the future ones get maybe double of what they already once did and because we were cognizant of what the market looks like we did not do that because you know the markets were not in a place where you know you can do that so even to the last investor who joined us we gave them the same terms as the first one uh for that round uh and that just goes back to my point that you know maybe if the first few checks took a month and a half to close the harassment of 30 minutes to close you know because it's a very big signaling game because then you're making it a no-brainer for them and you're giving them what they want right well your goal is to capitalize the company so that you can actually hit yeah that's it it's a valuable Insight I feel like a lot of Founders you know getting that first big check is always the hardest hurdle to overcome and then once you get those that first check it's just everything gets a little bit easier because you have that validation everyone no one wants to be the first check and finding that person that firm that's brave enough to kind of come in with a big check you know can uh help streamline the process but I want to go back to something you mentioned uh so you structured as a safe and uh yeah pretty common for you know precede seed stage to go the safe route and kind of allow people to come in when they uh when they're ready so it gives you a lot of flexibility and autonomy um but you also mentioned there's a token warrant so for those that maybe aren't familiar with how a token warrant Works maybe talk a little bit about you know why you chose to offer the token more and kind of what the what that looked like yeah so because the crypto aspect is very important to our company because that is how we incentivize our users to be as part of our LinkedIn for web3 product um still writing on tokens for being a part of the community for contributing to it for finding jobs for helping others so there were like two three different ways in which you can raise uh you know and uh help you know sell a token in some sense right uh and uh that has gone through a lot of like you know trial and error over the last you know since 2017 through the many great ups and downs that crypto has gone through but what I found through talking to others Founders who had raised at the same time and also evaluating with our lawyers like what are the different options token warrant works out well because it gives the uh investors and ability to uh also not just buy purchase company equity in the company but also purchase the token you know using the same Capital that they're putting now the interesting thing with web 3 companies is that you know some of them turn out to become Dows in the future you don't know and some of them complete you know dissolve their cap table and they only have like one table which is their token where you know 50 to 60 is like reserved for the community and the rest is held by the company the investors the early team and you know the other things that you do so so what it basically came down to is like you know allowing these our investors to participate in both and you know being very upfront that you know if this turns out into a Dao or uh you know if it's both the equity route and also the token route then they have participation and that and I think that's one of the reasons why all our investors were you know web3 focused because they understood that concept versus when we talked to uh Web Two investors or like you know General investors or traditionally invested marketplaces they would not understand it and also not understand it maybe their LPS don't allow them to invest in that because they're like we don't pay you to go and you know do that right so it through the whole process it was very interesting to learn like how the you know VC mindset is also like you can see that now also where you know if a couple of funds hold back on investing then the rest of them will wait also and that's something that you can also see you know like or if some of them open The Floodgate and the rest will start to invest so there's a lot of signals in game and uh yeah and and so you know in this process you know your father is going to work it on product getting some transactions priority guys going out and raising but when you guys actually went out um to raise you know took several months to to kind of get get going like from an operation standpoint and you know company growth like what happened in that timeline were you guys kind of like growing transactions were you seeing momentum were you like just focused on fundraising kind of what was that that balance of you know fundraising versus execution and hitting milestones yeah I think uh it was interesting because for me my soul paying day in and day out was fundraising and really tweaking The Narrative and tweaking the story to be able to television that investors and no you know the team and the company is excited about what we are trying to do uh the good thing about having you know a co-founder and especially someone you can trust and work with is that you know what your skills are like for my co-founder it is very clear that you know he has a very strong operational and you know Revenue understanding so you know we we just went to the period in in the mode where we were growing the number of users and we're growing the revenue that we were generating right and that's what uh they were focused on and uh you know he was focused on and I was focused on the fundraise aspect so I actually uh I'm actually thinking that now if I have to go out to fundraise and we have a much much more much bigger team like you know maybe three times quicker than what we were previously how to manage that process but you know that's that's something else even you know the bridge comes so like when you have to cross that bridge but but thankfully back then uh you know he was able to take the burnt of that and I'm very thankful about that so just just kind of a fun question does you know being that you're the studio and you were the one fundraising like does that make it that your dad works for you or do you guys kind of see yourselves a secret I I think the the good thing is there's a lot of like trust and respect in the way we work and it's uh you know we both update to where our areas of expertise and responsibilities are uh if it has to do anything but you know fundraise or product or marketing where I have an understanding then we look at that I mean age and you know family status or that does not comment a picture if there's anything to do with like you know strategy and market and yeah and you know how do you execute and operate on it I think he does really well so I you know Reserve judgment and we always take each other's counsel and you know uh how that goes so so of course you have tough conversations a lot and you know but it's not like this the first time we are working together I think we have like hired a lot of that out over the past two two and a half years uh so I had to put in a lot of work in that okay good good politically correct things um well I wanted to kind of um yeah we talked about some of the strategies that you use getting more mentors being a part of community you know to open up doors for you what would um what was something that sucked about your fundraise what was something that was just exhausting or difficult or frustrating about your experience uh I think the one thing that we that I had to mentally prepare for and this is something that you know you get more comfortable as you deal with more ambiguity so there's no guarantee of success uh and that is just something to be very comfortable with because uh if I would have gone to the fundraise process thinking I have to set undue expectations that hey I have to raise this much or have to raise this much or you know then it becomes like you're playing a game against yourself right so although that still keep kept on coming on especially because it was my first time actually fundraising myself um uh versus having you know someone else do it in the team and uh but I felt like you know keeping that mindset was very important to mitigate a lot of the self-doubts and what of questions that come in mind and just focus on running but you could see you know there's like from one day two day three days one week two weeks three weeks you're doing for the process you're going through the motions you may not get results and I was not getting results right uh and uh you you get in ways you keep craft crafting the pitch because the pitch is the product that you're selling at some point you know it's uh it's a pitch deck it's the story The Narrative that you'll get giving that you're selling so just getting like very comfortable with that was okay that you you may get raised zero at the end of it and it's okay because if we had an acquisition offer with a term sheet which we had to decline to go on to race right um and uh you know it's easy to give up and say like okay let's take this whatever nice paycheck that's coming uh you know for the whatever transactions is coming through let's go ahead and do that versus being like you have to say no right you're going to keep them hanging to go on to do something else and uh that's an interesting perspective because I've seen that happen before I've had that happen in a past company where you know before you go out to raise or in the middle of the race someone kind of throws a curveball at you and says what if we just buy you outright and it's uh as a Founder it's kind of hard to say no sometimes because that could be millions of dollars in your pocket today um but you're sacrificing maybe tens of millions or hundreds of millions you know for a far shot chance coming down the road and you sacrifice control so it's uh but it gives you some fuel to go to market with you know if you go out and raise money you kind of have a price and often that you could probably have a much higher price for the valuation when raising Capital as opposed to the acquisition price so it uh it's an interesting predicament to kind of make a tough tough decision on um you know so for kind of where you guys are at now so you guys raise you you raised back in June you're you kind of announced in December I kind of like to unpack that a little bit more as to why you delayed the announcement there were a couple of things one is what is right for the company at that point and what was right for the company is to uh revamp our product towards the token experience it was right for the company to revamp our uh strategy around how are we you know what is our vision of the company is it just a job Marketplace what are the issues with that uh what is the competitiveness of that how can you grow Beyond it um so but and also we wanted to do it in a thoughtful way but like you know you don't want to get users on your platform or you know you get like an announcement and then there's no follow-up through it right so our Focus entirely on the company the back then was to make sure our product is relamped at the place where we can bring it and we can actually leverage uh the growth or the organic traffic that we are getting um into into growing the network and the community so uh you know we just didn't want to like waste that opportunity and you know get a good high and then you know not be able to follow through on it so just being a little bit thoughtful on that and going from there no that makes perfect sense because in a lot of cases you know companies want to announce a raise as quickly as possible for acquiring talent and getting people excited about the opportunity but in this case it was strategic to delay because you wanted to make sure the product was in a good place to capitalize on the announcement and so that's something for you know Founders out there to think about is you know think about how you want to spread the message like one of my companies in the past we delayed our announcement for months because we thought it would make us look bad in front of our customers we were dealing with schools we didn't want to come out and brag say hey we made Millions you would make have millions of dollars and like the schools you know like oh we're charging schools and uh you know so we delayed it for quite some time until we needed to use it as leverage to acquire Talent you know we needed to come off as legitimate and of scale and have you know kind of a larger presence in the Tech Community in our area so we kind of strategically launched you know that announcement in specific areas so it makes perfect sense to kind of think about you know not just announcing for the sake of announcing but strategically aligning it with company objectives um and oh go ahead no go ahead so um the next question would be you're from a fundraising perspective you know you guys raised two and a half million you know it's been maybe a little under a year you know eight to you know uh 10 months or so like what's next so what kind of Milestones are you guys looking to try to hit and when do you think you'll go back to Market yeah so uh the good and they're a good thing and a bad thing is like you know the good thing is you know we run our company in a very efficient way like you know we have our independent board and you know my co-founder also has a lot of experience so we haven't been running it in a way where you know we burn hundreds of thousands every month and you know then we are in a position like the funny joke is that no matter how much you raise everyone just says 20 months of Runway you know so so we have been a little bit more thoughtful about it uh and that gives us space and we have been hitting our Milestones also and we've been growing at a pretty rapid Pace in terms of the users on the network so what we're trying to do is like you know uh help grow our community really build this LinkedIn for web 3 and you know the futuristic technology is kind of a community uh quicker have more users on it uh have you know go from like tens of thousands of users to hundreds of thousands that's really where we want to go with and we really want to uh in this market uh fundraise from a position of strength because you know you know the web three ecosystem or the Venture funding has also that dried up but that's not just isolated to web3 that's you know across the board you can see that uh like you know if you go to like security companies maybe like you know two three companies are taking up like a majority of the funding so um for us it makes sense to continue to head our wild Stones given that we are very decently capitalized and we are not in a position of like you know being stressed about you know running out of Runway and like six to 12 months kind of thing and um uh and continue to grow our numbers and you know given the markets are like this we do what when life gives you lemons and you know you're like okay if hiring is slowing down then how can we grow the community right and we move our true no other core metric accordingly so that the two-sided or the multi-sided network continues to evolve and as hiring takes up then we continue to have those people get opportunities but it's not like you know going going with the position of strength really and you know deciding to fundraise accordingly I guess uh you know for other Founders out there that are going out and trying to raise their you know pre-seed seed series a you know what would be your advice to them I think um uh it depends on you know I may not be qualified to talk about Beyond seat stage you know just because I have not raised myself uh but uh uh the seed stage in this market um has been you know last year I thought was tough but this year is also very tough so I um uh I would highly encourage um I I do think that it if someone needs to go out and raise Capital then it's better to do it now than later because you know if it continues to get worse then it gets better then you know you're always playing that game where you know like if I would have race in 2021 I would have raised x amount and if I'm raising in 2022 then I'm raising like why which is a percent less than x and then 2023 is like even lesser that's at least a trend that I am seeing uh because now everyone's saying like be comfortable with round rounds and things like that and you know even talking with initial conversations with our investors I think maybe even a flat round for us you know is what you know we have heard right like you know if you just wanted to go with the current Milestones if you wanted to race so just being comfortable but not thinking so much so about valuations and I think valuations as a vanity metric and it just gets to the ego quicker and I know everyone has uh you know a lot of people have got size ego yes so uh not to think about that but to think about the amount of capital you need to survive and you know making a very coherent story and strategy around it and having numbers to prove because getting that one investor who can back you and then others follow through through their introductions or through their credibility is usually how I've seen the Domino's role yeah that makes sense and I also want to tap into some nuggets of information you shared earlier uh you know it sounds like you know it's hard to do this once you've kind of get in the mode of fundraising but you've you've established a community you joined and participated in communities and built your network to where you know when when you came out looking to raise you had opportunities for warm intros and that's something that I think you know Founders really need to look at and you know take into consideration you know before going to raise and also you guys had traction you know you guys had a certain amount of volume of transactions you know I imagine it was growing and showing positive signs uh and you were building an efficient business uh where I think kind of right before you guys started to raise it was all the rage to light as much cash on fire and you know get as many users as possible as with terrible unit economics and you know the world is flipped and now investors are expecting you know Founders to be Capital efficient you know be smart with their money extend runways have profitable unit economics and so you know running a a profitable or you know uh in an economic uh unit economical business is kind of back in you know in style now and that's something that Founders really need to kind of pay attention to and you know prepare for going to raise when you're at a certain inflection point not necessarily you know everyone needs money all the time in most cases but it's about how you can raise Capital successfully and time it right with the growth of your your product and your business um so yeah Rama this has been an amazing conversation it's been amazing to hear your background I'm so excited to to have your story and be able to share it because you know I think this will probably be one if not the only story where I get to have a you know son and father co-founder situation for a tech company that is raised a sizable seed round which is you know awesome to hear so I really appreciate you taking the time to share your story with us today thank you so much Jason it was wonderful to be on the podcast today so thank you so much and for anyone that's following us um you know what would be the best way for them to learn more about you out Define and potentially follow you um I'm happy to connect with anyone who needs help or wants to uh uh you know like you know deconstruct the fundraise process I'm happy to please feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn or Twitter or on my email it should be pretty straightforward to figure out the email and I'm happy to help anyone it meets up awesome I really appreciate that and we'll make sure to link those in the in the podcast down below and again thank you so much for for joining us thanks actually take care