How do you layer AI onto a people-heavy service business?

welcome back to fundraising demystified today we're going back in time a little bit with a very close friend of mine a friend of mine that pretty much introduced the word entrepreneur to me back when I was 18 in college John Tucker founder of Health flow bootstrapper since day one John great to have you on the show to finally bring our conversation into the public Limelight thanks man I appreciate uh appreciate you having me man it makes me feel old we met when we were 18 we're not 18 anymore so time goes by fast you and I have been riffing offline about integrating AI into our companies how we're using it how you're using it John just to kick things off when you think about all the AI tools that you're doing how does that change your Staffing requirements and headcap requirements I think I would almost answer in like two ways like one one of the things we noticed with customer service over the years is it's very systematic and so I started to realize a couple years into the business is like technology is going to replace this and it happened like very fast over the past couple years but like in terms of our clients and what we do for clients and like how many customer service agen you need it's significantly less now because AI can handle a lot of the tier one questions right and so just in like our Core Business it makes it so you need probably half the customer service agents that you used to and I think that'll accelerate really quickly internally as a team I look at it as basically an efficiency game where basically a team member on our team in sales for example can handle 2 to 3x the deal flow that another competing agency might be able to handle because we're using AI for a ton of the steps and all the meeting preparations and all the you know email Outreach and all that stuff Rel layering AI into all of it so I think of it not so much as being able to downsize our team but more so being able to increase the efficiency of the team and I look at that as a competitive thing where it's like okay I know some of our competitors very well they're using chat GPT Maybe right and like that's very far off from where we're at I look at it as almost like a knife to a gunfight type of situation I think we're in an interesting spot in AI right now where you can just run circles around people if you know not even the advanced stuff but just like you know more than the basics and you use it every single day you can accomplish a ton with it so I look at it as like a booster essentially to people well what comes to mind is also just competitive rating pricing when you could probably lower your price while keeping the same staff keeping the same profitability to be able to compete with maybe you know full AI automation Solutions but still have the human oversight that still frankly a lot of people want when you are looking at at companies and talking to to various different startups or you know potential customers of yours how do you look at these companies that you're talking to and and Advising them on AI integration bringing AI into their business I think everybody wants to bring AI into their business and then when you get into like planning like what does that mean like no like many people are not clear I don't want to say nobody but everyone's excited few are clear on how to implement it I think for businesses that are wanting to not disappear over the next couple years I think you have to understand how your business operates which most businesses do I don't know if they could articulated it but they need to know how it operates right so take the time to like get clear but make sure you're paying attention to like what AI tools are out there and like you know use trap gpt1 right because that's like the best model now I guess you could also say 03 is better at certain things but like use the most recent stuff spend time researching how things are going and push through to the point of like actually understanding what's possible with these things because then your mind starts to like bring it all together and say oh like for our deal research process we could use you know crew AI or some other you know agentic system it doesn't mean you have to build it and code it but you need to understand what's possible and so when I'm talking to businesses I try to get like really down to like what is the actual thing you need done in your business and then let's figure out how AI fits into that because that's all that we've done internally is figured out okay can AI answer a customer service ticket absolutely right for us one of the things we built that's really powerful is our onboarding process like build a knowledge base about the client's business and build up all the FAQs and like all these things um that our team needs that used to take probably six days 5 to six days two or three team members probably all in you know 40 hours total across cross them not a ridiculous amount of hours but more than 1 hour right now we have it literally down to about 90 minutes and it's probably three times four times better than the original one was and because we've spent 10 years building up that onboarding process so like we've always been very meticulous about it but then we started layering AI on part of it and now we're at the point where a client basically does like a 10-minute call with our AI system they don't even to talk to a human anymore they talk to the AI system that interviews them and then out the back end of that 90 minutes later pop uh a super detailed knowledge base that my team then reviews and like kind of annotates additional stuff that's needed so there still is a human review but it's night and day different than what it used to be the takeaway I think for the listener is the reason why we were able to build that is we spent 10 years understanding what's the best way to onboard a customer so we know our process but I spent three years going really deep into AI to really understand like what is possible how does this stuff work what does a genti mean like is crew AI the right tool set to use like I I got lost too over the years but it all started to come together eventually and I went oh like we could just do this with our onboarding process and now it's 90 minutes to get what used to take a week you're on a 200 plus person organization and it's heavily Builds on human labor and you're being so proactive and integrating AI that I thought it'd be important to have you on the show so that founders of startups and other companies could understand you know you might not be an AI company but how you can use AI to improve your efficiency and build better products faster quicker better can you give everyone a little bit of background on yourself and what you're doing at help flow yeah so so help flow started as basically a customer service agency in 2014 so it's been a little over 10 years and by CS agency I essentially mean doing customer support for other e-commerce stores so we have agents we staff those agents we train them and they do customer service for our clients and so started that in 2014 have always been really tech-minded I remember having together our initial technical systems and how do we learn the client's business and give the agent the right resources and all those things so at our core we're people business right we do customer service at least for the the first era of the company but we've always been technical we've always been systems minded a lot has happened in those 10 years but now we're essentially at the point where we provide virtual assistance so like human vas for any business for any role not just customer service not just Ecom but we layer AI on to like the entire thing it's an AI empowered human virs assistant and we've been able to accomplish a ton with AI so it's been super exciting the last couple years but that's the journey in the nutshell what's interesting about this and what I think every founder needs to be thinking about is we always look at growing head count and growing the team handle more capacity and hyperscaling and that's what the Venture world is all about and you know you have a 200 plus person team so let's talk about how you think about building these systems you know we talk about you having kind of a algorithmic mindset when it comes to building systems and operations is it like frankensteining a bunch of zappier Integrations is it building custom code how how do you do it yeah so that whole concept of like algorithmic thinking I've always considered myself like very systems minded as how I used to word it and I I wish I could remember who it was uh I know we started the conversation on Twitter and then we moved into a zoom meeting but I don't know who it was if if you're watching this please let me know because I like to credit you but this person said to me he's like John you're an algorithmic thinker your mind like thinks in algorithms and process and I was like yeah like that's a great way to say it and so this whole systems Focus or algorithmic thinking is essentially being able to see the pieces of a process right so like when something happens like what are the steps that get it to that point and even one of our other friends Greg from ticket kick back in the day I remember an email he sent me before one of our meetings he said John you are like the most process minded like person when you prepare for a meeting like I got everything here like I don't have to prepare everything I know how the meeting is going to go and all of that that is really important with AI because like AI can do anything essentially it can do a lot of stuff maybe not anything but it can do way more than most people are pushing it want but you have to be very specific right you could call that prompt engineering or like there's a ton of terminology for it but basically like be clear on what you want done and give the context of what you want done and so that whole algorithmic thinking mindset has caused me to really be able to communicate effectively to AI to get really good results back from Ai and because I'm like that our team is also like that right like for good or For Worse our team culture is kind of based on the founder at a certain point right I know it expands beyond that but we're very systems minded probably because I was very systems minded when we started the business and so that's created an army of 200 people that know how to communicate to robots because we communicate robotically sometimes internally and that's created a super exciting time with AI because I realized like when we communicate in that way we're able to have it do really complex things for us and so that's kind of like the line of thinking of of of how we've gotten to this point in terms of how I think about communicating with AI in terms of the tools and like how we put it together definitely started off Frankenstein for sure that was probably like early 2023 somewhere around that time and then you know late 2023 I started to get clear on you know the open AI Suite of apis and doing a little bit of development work myself I started to understand like how to move data around between these systems we're now at a if we fast forward we're doing a lot of like agentic AI stuff where essentially like we're able to build these teams of humans almost is how I explain it to people basically like through an API we have a team of AIS that will go out and do stuff you know research a topic research a prospect compile a report spot like quality check it do all this stuff and it'll come back with the work done right and so from that perspective we're essentially able to get a lot of Leverage on ourselves as a team by essentially thinking of AI like a human or thinking of AI like a team of humans and kind of building the tools in that way so that's kind of how we're thinking about the algorithmic mindset as part of it and then also understanding like what is AI in relation to your whole company and what your company does and how the team operates and see what I think is important for a lot of Founders to realize the reality is you can build great businesses with very few people if you know how to leverage these tools and build out these tools effectively and one of the biggest problems I run into is the amount of tinkering required of just the constant tweaking and you know manipulating of the prompt or the data that you're inputting how do you go about keeping track of all that tinkering evals like evals are if if you build an AI like you know what EV vals are maybe you're into it maybe you're not but um EV vals are so important EV vals are essentially quality control like did the AI produce what you wanted right and doing that in an objective way to say like here's what I wanted here's how I would measure what I want and then you're essentially evaluating like did that happen I think it was one of the YC guys or at least it was on a podcast but they basically said like the two ingredients of building with AI is essentially workflow and evals right so like workflow is like what do you want done what is the sequence of how it gets done which is algorithmic thinking right so I've got a cooler name for I think and then eval like did that happen that's basically like what you need to build with AI and you could say you need training data you need all this other stuff which I guess is technically true it depends what you're building but with workflow and evals you can get to the point where it's producing what you want and so the constant tinkering is just part of the process of building but I think when you have proper eval set up for what like what are you trying to do and and what is the measure of good essentially it enables you to have an end point for that tinkering and so one of the things that we do is and this is more so over early 2024 I probably started studying evals and like all that stuff works now we're at the point where for the things we're building we have eval set up to say okay is this hitting the mark and then once it gets to a certain point in terms of the eval and we say okay that is done being built and we will stop tinkering on it we still revisit it so like if we make big changes in our system you got to run all the evals again but once you measure it as like this is what good is it kind of frees you up to say okay I'm not going to Tinker on that one anymore because with I think this has always been true for software like you could always Tinker further that's always been true but I think because AI is a little bit of a black box it's not like if then statements in code the tinkering could go forever like you just Tinker forever and that's usually what I run into I guess I don't really call evals but that's what we do with our teams we build out our own algorithms in AI for thunder in terms of the free tools that we provide as well as a lot of the backend tools that we use for our clients when it comes to what we call like a capital strategy assessment it's still going to have a lot of human touch the fact that 70% could be done within like an hour of what would typically take an investment Bank like weeks or like have some poor associate working 80 hours on a particular project and their life and you know to to having a partner do the output in a few hours and we're starting to see that across the startup landscape of companies being able to Output more faster quicker earlier and the bar to get to the certain Milestones that VCS want to see or potential acquires want to see you know you can do it with less and less people and less money which I think is you know a fascinating scenario you look at the list of companies we put up like cursor 100 million AR and 21 L 20 people 100 million with just 20 people lovable 0 to 10 million 15 people and then you what was the other one yeah magnific like 10 million in AR with just two people like it's just wild what companies are able to do these days and so I'd be curious when you look at you know similar structured businesses as you were kind of talking about your competition like what opportunities come to mind do you see it as like let's out compete them or let's see if we can go you know buy them or do we make them IR relevant funny you bring that up I'm literally looking at a deal right now for a VA business that I think we could replicate over tons of va businesses the main premise is basically what you said we can be way more efficient and effective than other VA businesses right and I think that's because of how we think of the actual virtual assistant the typical VA business or really any business with employees is you train those employees they build up skill sets and then they can do really good work right the thing that's unique with AI is you can separate that work the value of the employees work you can separate it from tactical knowledge of how something should be done and doing it efficiently versus what should be done the Strategic decisions so like tactical get the stuff done and then strategic like what should be done what should be the decision here right and what's happening now is the Tactical what to do can be built into a process which has always been true but now you can have ai do that process and so then it becomes okay like the key value of the employees is is the Strategic decisions right also called reasoning right now as of last year the reasoning models are starting to come out so now the reasoning can be done too not all of it but some of it and so when you think of the value of the employees you can use AI to supercharge that and I think that the VA business is a place where you could very quickly grow by going out and essentially acquiring businesses rolling them up and then running them in way we are without going like super deep into it I'd love to nerd out with you later on like business strategy stuff I think we have two options I think one is to go out and basically buy these companies roll them into our model and and do it better the challenge with that is we would need to bring their vas into our model right which is not hard like we still have a process to do that but that would be one challenge of that model the other way is for us to figure out how we can do what we do with their vas so essentially do what we're doing but do it in a software dri driven way where we don't have to sell you a VA we sell you the way to work with a VA with the tools using our software and so I think we're considering both both might be a good option but I think in every industry I think you and I have probably had discussions like this and again going back to like that competitive mindset for some reason I'm just fascinated with the opportunity to like go into an unsexy business and just run circles around competitors like we used to talk about this with digital marketing where it's like you go into an industry where like nobody knows how to do digital marketing and the best marketer like you could have some really good wins with that I think AI creates a huge new opportunity across probably most Industries to come in and say if we are the best at integrating AI into a business to provide the value that the business provides make it more valuable like more valuable to their end customer right because you're like you're able to do it faster or better with AI and more efficiently so the business Valu is up I think there's gonna be a ton of those opportunities over the next couple years and I think that's one path to capitalize on them is to basically buy businesses and improve the value by doing that another one is to embrace the fact that I think their customers of every business they're all going to start to be looking at like how should we Implement AI so if a competitor of ours is not implementing AI effectively we may be able to just sweep up their customers by having a better way to do things and so it becomes a decision of like do I buy that revenue or do I take that revenue and pros and cons to both right but I think there's opportunities across the board because of the disruption yeah think be very interesting I see a lot of companies in the you know m millions of Revenue but you know not Venture scale or anything like that where you know this type of process is so feasible of like okay do we Implement AI to be faster quicker stronger and then go do business development and try to steal business or do we go in and buy our competition knowing that we can perform at a better you know gross margin or EIT margin than our counterparts and I think that's going to be a major transformational shift over the next 10 years across Industries and something that I think will be pretty powerful to to witness as you know it's say younger Talent you know comes to Market and be like why do you guys do it this way or what we're seeing with Doge with Elon Musk and the US government of like them having to take an elevator down to Min Shaft or like file like retirement papers for US government employees you're like what is wrong with our world today like how much opportunity Gap is there to close by moving those level of inefficiencies you're likely having trouble raising money or selling your company personally I've had four exits and I've raised over $145 million if you want a free coaching session with me just like subscribe and leave a comment down below letting me know what you think of today's video for a chance to win a free coaching session with me I'll select three winners every single month You' just have to like subscribe and leave a comment down below for a chance to win now onto the video I think AI took these inefficiencies there's always was inefficiencies in business but it took these inefficiencies and like just blew them up very quickly so like what's possible now in 2025 you know we're recording this in February is vastly different than what was possible in like February of 2022 right and that's only three years right that's not a long time business but it's like completely different what's possible and you could argue that like February of 2024 one year like what's possible now is very different than what was possible then I don't remember when GPT 01 came out but like the con cep of a reasoning model makes it so that the Strategic decisions can be made by AI too and a year from now there's going it's going to be as big of a leap I think that's I like people make the comparison of like when computers you know got you mainstream call it the 80s and 90s when computers started to be adopted and stuff like that but like I think it's even more rapid adoption like that's almost probably 10x faster than computer adoption just because one already everyone already has computers now and to everyone already has access to chbt there's like no barrier to entry to have access to this kind of stuff it's really more of do you have someone dedicated to this and focused on this now either the CEO who's focusing on it or bringing in someone that's going to be dedicated on it and what systems can be out to me whether it's Hiring Agency or bringing in like a chief of AI well I'm pretty sure we'll start to see that across a lot of the you know Fortune 500s is the the chief AI raw hiring like 25 year olds and 30y olds I got something to add on that too I've been doing a lot of reflection like at the end of the year last year and and I think what's unique about the journey that we went through that I went through as a CEO of the company is I realized like five years ago that like what we do is going to be completely replaced and it probably early and I probably thought it was going to happen faster but I kind of got to a point where I said I I think what we do today is going to be completely replaced by technology and so that caused me to start to like look externally of like by what technology and how does it work and how could we adopt it and all these things so I got into the technology and into the disruption early on and so I had time to really like understand it and then I think what happened is there was a healthy mix of Terror and opportunity and it was this dance over probably like a two-year period of just knowing like holy I got to figure this out otherwise I'm going to be displaced I I felt fear being uh made obsolete essentially and I'm way into Tech and way into technology and very systems focused right and so it caused me to be able to dig into it and actually enjoy doing it and love doing it and be interested in it and I think that with any Tech change it's important to actually be interested in it and enjoy the process you could hire a chief of AI yes but I think also like every leader in every business has to understand at its core like how does AI function so that they can identify opportunities of where it fits because that way you can go through that transformation effectively everybody will become obsolete because of AI if they don't Embrace and use AI effectively I don't know the timetable it's faster for customer service than other Industries it's slower for certain industries but everybody will become obsolete if they don't adapt to it right and so I think it's really important as Founders and Business Leaders to like actually be interested in it and enjoy it because it causes you to go into the rabbit hole and spend time and eventually you start to see all the dots connect so you know before we hopped on you were kind of talking about this workflow that you were using in terms of creating internal tools and products have you for you to kind of share some of your insights like maybe a pet project of yours right now that you think is taking the latest and greatest Ai and kind of sharing how you're thinking about it what problem you're trying to solve I could go in a couple directions with this I know we talked about like the coding one we could go into a little bit of that or just in general of like how like how we're taking our current process of like layering AI onto the team and like taking it to another level I think for people that are running software businesses I think it's critical to like go very deep into you know AI assisted coding you know one of the guys that I think is really pushing the envelope on this is M I think his last name is Wright McKay Wright we can link it up in the show notes but these workflows you can build with like Chad GPT 01 Claude cursor and like knowing how to work between those tools and how do you give your entire code base to 01 since there's not U or 01 Pro since there's not the API at least as of now like when you try to figure out a workflow for how all these things can help in your software development process you can get a lot more done and so I think for every you know software uh company I think it's really important to make sure that your team is is starting to use all that stuff but even for non-software companies which I would put us in that bucket at least for now I've spent a lot of time specifically over the last 18 months learning how to code essentially but like code in like this new world so understanding like you know front end backend you know Frameworks what's the pros and cons of different Frameworks to use the same framework between the front and back end you know database stuff you know users payments all these things like there's a lot of aspects of software development and because I've gone deep into like how software development works and how do you architect a piece of software we're starting to realize how we could take what we do and turn it into like a software product and do it fairly quickly using you know AI coding in a solid team and so I think uh the reason why I bring that up is when you I think it's important to start to understand how software is built using AI because then it becomes way more feasible for you to integrate AI I into your business right integrating AI is not as straightforward as like just go out and buy you know Salesforce is doing some cool AI stuff like maybe we should move to Salesforce right or there's a bunch of help desks that are doing you know some cool AI stuff for customer service maybe we should just integrate them right like that might be Step Zero but like the most effective step to take or the most important step to take is to understand what are they doing and how are they doing it so you can start to apply it yourself and I think studying how software is built and studying how all this AI stuff works is is the path to get there I I would wrap that up by you got to watch for this blind spot I think which is really important when you start to see AI tools out there a lot of them are doing some powerful stuff but a lot of them are just you know nine to 9 to 12 months ahead of maybe you or maybe they're competitors and so they come out with this product and say look like you can automate a customer service ticket and they wrap it in a nice interface and you know do all these things in marketing but it's automating customer service ticket if you know nothing about AI that's insane to see it's magical but if you understand even just a little bit about AI you go aren't they just passing the ticket up to open Ai and then getting the response sort of like what else are they doing like once you understand a little more about AI you can understand what these tools do and then you can work with your team to build some of the same functionality in your system for like 8 to 10x cheaper than some of these companies are are charging so I think it's really important to not just adopt like AI tools but again to understand how they work so you can build some of that into your own your own functionality because otherwise you become somebody else's margin like you don't really get the margin benefits by adopting this stuff you don't get the you're someone else's margin I like that it's a good quote the Jeff be's quote right your margin is my opportunity yeah your margin is my opportunity but you're someone else's margin I think is a different more like yeah so open AI wins the margin battle like they're going to eat all the labor of many Industries but in the intern there's going to be a ton of companies that take the open AI margin and then Mark it up you know 6X or something somewhere around that and they'll have a good business model for two two to five years some number I don't know how long two to five years I don't know how long it'll be a lot of margin and many companies will do very well but there's a lot of companies out there that like the tech they're doing is not that complex if if you're interested in learning it but if you're not like you justay that's still fine it's still a good win yeah I think at the end of the day like people still for as long as our Generations around and maybe even gen Z still like there will still be a desire for human engagement and human interaction and doing business with humans but if you can make humans faster stronger better it's like you know all the cheesy Marvel movies and other movies out there like the AI soldiers and stuff like that like the robotic soldiers and make them super enhanced like it's always like a common theme but like at the end the day people would love to have that functionality but still have the human oversight as well human stress humans as well for the most part but I think this concept of you have a short window to capture a margin opportunity while things are still difficult things are still hard to figure out you can build the business that does it for people for a while but at some point you know as you're kind of saying like that you you might be able to just do it yourself like lot I I see a lot of companies talking about ripping out Legacy Erp systems and you know Legacy software internal tools and just building exactly what they need only for what they need faster Che because like I was at Walmart and we had spent billions on soft Ware and then they spent billions on people replacing the billions in software that they were spending because they had the it was just such a scale like paying $10 per seat for three million people you know gets gets a little pricey and so they were like well we could build a team of 150 people and build that tool ourselves now it's like they build a team of five people so it's gon to be a very interesting future ahead you know I was going to wrap up but now I got to talk about bardy you I don't know if you come across bardy AI um but they blew up the scene with AI for like networking kind of thing and they used supposedly B raised the $8 million round that they recently closed and I called it I was just like I got to give it a try it's an Australian accent which is brilliant you know it's just like so hilarious and it's got you know it's a witty personality and all that kind of stuff you're like okay and and but I like what they did was it's like this is AI there's no faking you or fooling you you know this is AI and this is your you know kind of it was my first experience having like what was considered to be a natural conversation with AI results you know as far as the output of the recommended connections I kept recommending people I specifically said I don't want to meet but EV Val yeah they didn't run EV maybe that's an example of like it's a broad that's a very broad thing for them to try to do is like make recommendations on your network right like I know the data is there but that's a fairly complex thing to do and so but the thing is the data is not there like I I do a lot of M we have our own matching algorithm it's like we're having to fill the gaps with AI and make reasoning assumptions with 01 because there's just so few dat data points that are actually up to dat and relevant and public on a lot of you know companies and firms and you investors and stuff like that and that's where it becomes really difficult because if you just go to someone's LinkedIn it's like it's says they're an investor in like 20 companies on their profile and then you know the fifth one it's the actual real job they have at the firm and like for an AI to skim all that data un didn't have a contextual awareness of like what's actually right I've see it miss a lot and I'm sure they'll get better and better at it every time but right now it's it totally misses the mark on you know accuracy we were I think we're at like 70 or 80% and that's after a couple months of tinkering in terms of kind of filling the gap on you know investor related data so I think that's a symptom of like I think of this as an interface and an infrastructure problem like or interface and architecture really like when I say the data is there like it's not there in one place and that's an architecture problem of like where do you get that data and so I think that's one thing that needs to be solved in the coming years is like where is all the data and how do you make that all available to Ai and then the interface part is like how do you communicate with AI when it's not sure does it go up to you and then go back to AI or does it just escalate to you and say this one's not good like this didn't pass right and so I think like it's a whole different way of like building software but I'm I'm starting to see companies start to kind of think like that and that's how we're thinking is when you think of AI like a human and you treat it as such and you work with it back and forth it becomes much clearer on how it would be built doesn't mean it's easy to build it but it becomes much clearer on how it would be done so that's kind of how I'm thinking about that human component how I always treat it is like I treat it like an intern you know like I I I talk to it as if it's an intern and then I expect like an associate level response means you know so it's like to where I great and judge it against an associate level of definitely don't want like it was in turn output you know last year now it's like it's getting closer to what I would consider like a B level associate B level meaning like you have a players then you have like your B players and your C players it's usually between the output's usually between a c player and a b player but if someone slightly more experienced than who I'm having to explain it to which is like how I typically will engage with AI you know on a regular basis so that's always what I tell people as far as my metaphor when you know when they don't know what to do like some people just don't have the right mindset when it comes into managing they don't see it as managing a person or you know or you know they just do magic make it happen yeah yeah I think the way I think of that part is like impr prompting you should think of it as a human and make sure it's like Crystal Clear what you want done but also repeat like a lot like repeat very awkwardly like if you were talking to a human you said I want you to do this because of this blah blah blah and like here's what I want it to be and it's really important that it's th like you basically are baking Crystal Clear like there's no room for confusion of what you're asking it to do that's the first piece and that's very awkward for people I think to do the second part is I give it all the context so I give it a lot of context and then at the bottom if you're just doing in a chat gbt prompt repeat again what you want done so it's Crystal Clear that's super helpful and then the other part is after you do all that at the end if you say you know before you get started or before you provide this like feel free to ask some questions if you need some clarifying if you need some answers clarified right again very similar to a human you would just send them off and not let them ask questions when you do that I think the the results end up being a lot stronger but it's definitely a constant game of tinkering to see like what's the right way to do it well all I can say is it's worth the tinkering for people that don't know you John and they want to learn more what's the best way for people to learn more about you yeah I I think helpf flow.com is probably best you can learn more about our approach and you know what we're doing we're doing some cool stuff with virtual assistance and then the main thing I would do whether you're interested in working with a VA or not if you go to the site you'll see a call to action where you can literally like talk to the AI on the phone and just experience it one of the big things that we do with vas is we make it so you don't have to like overe explain everything to your VA and like type out all these you know emails or Sops you basically just talk to an AI on the phone and it will interview you about the work you want done under the process and then it creates all the Sops for the VA but you can literally do that on the site and just talk to the AI and like really experience it and that tends to like kind of opens open people's mind quite a bit to like what it's like to actually work with AI and so I think that would probably be the best bet just go to helpf flow.com check out kind of our approach of what we're doing and then talk to the AI so you can really see how it works John thank you so much for being on the show really appreciate your insights and just catching up and and having a fun AI chat so we'll get this episode out and and share with our audience as thank you so much Jason I appreciate it man and for everyone listening I hope it's been helpful thank you for watching today's episode as a reminder I'm your host Jason Kirby I have Bill sold multiple companies with over 135 million in transactions as either a Founder operator investor across multiple Industries I'm currently the managing director and founder of thunder. BC where we help companies and Founders at all stages navigate what capital to raise and who to raise it from and help improve company's odds of raising Capital if you need help reach out to us at help. under. BC if you like Today's Show please share with your friends give us a like or comment down below and as a reminder this show was published weekly and to get notified new episodes and our newsletter be sure to go to our website at join. thunder. BC and if you sign up today I'll send you a few freebies on how to negotiate a term sheet how to get a free list of relevant VCS and much more that's it no more Shameless plugs thank you and see you next week